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locked What is Facebook 2 (was Calendar is live)

 

Mark,

When you say that Groups.io not be turned into Facebook 2, I'm not sure
I understand. Is that because you don't think there should be likes, or
is it something more?
One of the consistent complaints in the Yahoo Groups community about "becoming Facebook" had to do with the style of presenting messages, and authoring replies.

In classic Yahoo Groups the message list had three views available to the user:

"Simple", which showed just the subject, author and date:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shalf/10130300773/in/set-72157636272401705

"Summaries", which added a summary of the content (much as Groups.io's Thread and Message View of the Archives):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shalf/10130179514/in/set-72157636272401705

"Expanded", which showed the whole message bodies:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shalf/10130171945/in/set-72157636272401705

If I recall correctly one of the short-lived redesigns copied Facebook even to the extent of displaying the message archive as a list of topics, with the replies inline under the topic, much as a Facebook status update and its comments.


The other factor that was considered Facebook-like was opening up a reply inline with the message, and not providing for a quote of the original message (marked with the standard plain-text > indentation) in the edit box for the reply. This, alas, is replicated in Groups.io, leaving those who read by email in the dark for context. It also makes it difficult for me to practice my preferred style of interspersed quote and reply when addressing a longer message, or any message with more than one point.

Many of us were more comfortable with a Reply interface that more closely resembled an email message composition window after clicking "Reply".

-- Shal
(Classic Yahoo Groups's web UI could be modelled, in many ways, as simply a group-enhanced webmail MUA.)


locked Re: questionbcc

Cherrill <cdjamieson@...>
 

could someone reply to my message with regard to bcc.

thank you

Cherrill


locked Re: Bug in message formatting - strikethrough doesn't "stick".

 

Jim,

Would strike-through come through anyway in plain text, which is how I
and many others always read email?
Not if you have your email client or service set to show you the text/plain part of a multipart message. My own preference for plain text notwithstanding, I think you "and many others" are a vanishingly small minority, getting smaller all the time.

If it's showing something significant about the edit, another way of
doing it might be more appropriate.
Arguably true of Bold or any other text formatting as well. But that wasn't the point - this was a bug report not a comment on preferred practice.

-- Shal


locked Re: Bug in message formatting - strikethrough doesn't "stick".

 

Would strike-through come through anyway in plain text, which is how I and many
others always read email? If it's showing something significant about the edit,
another way of doing it might be more appropriate.

Jim Fisher

On 16 Nov 2014 at 1:46, Shal Farley wrote:

I wrote:

The strikethrough font attribute doesn't appear to save when editing a message.
Bold and color do.

Oh, it doesn't post when creating a new message either.
I take that back. The strikethrough came through in the email, so it must be
just a display problem in the archive.

Nope, not as simple as that either. Strikethrough shows in the archive for my
message in this (beta) group, which was posted by email. But not in the archive
of a message in my test group posted via the group. But it did come through in
the email of that same message.

-- Shal


--
http://www.jimella.me.uk - my personal web site covering many subjects
http://jimellame.tumblr.com - My thoughts on freedom
http://jimella.wordpress.com - political snippets, especially economic policy
http://jimella.livejournal.com - misc. snippets, some political, some not
Forget Google! I search with https://duckduckgo.com which doesn't spy on you


locked Re: Creeping Facebook

 

Shal,
This one I did test!

There are two links at the foot of the message: "View attachments on the web" and a clickable thumbnail.
On the (Mac) desktop when not logged in to Yahoo, the "View attachments" link led to a view of the group site with a large thumbnail of the photo which could be opened, but without access to the rest of the group data.
The "clickable thumbnail" link gave the same limited view of the group site but also opened the picture.

When previously logged-in the photo was displayed in the same way, but full access to the site was available.

So the desktop behaved by and large correctly.

On my iPhone (not previously logged in) both links gave the Yahoo log-in screen.

When I had logged in to Yahoo, the iPhone displayed the large thumbnail or the opened picture, depending on which link was touched.

I tried the above on both Gmail and Apple Mail on Desktop and iPhone and the results were the same.

So I would guess that what I found is a quirk of iOS?

But many people use predominantly email for group interaction, and it is understandable that having to log in to Yahoo to see a picture is a pain - particularly when they don't know that they only have to do it once and thereafter it will work!

More Yahoo stuff - sorry Mark!

regards,
Ian

On 15 November 2014 23:31, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:
Ian,

> "Could I just say hooray for Facebook. I read your same post on the
> Yahoo site, clicked on the attachment, was asked for my password,
> couldn't be bothered, so moved on.

That's odd.

The store-on-site attachments are normally (or have been, I haven't tested recently) available via the email link without signing in. Maybe when they enhanced the handling of images a few months back they broke or forgot about that feature.

-- Shal



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locked Re: Bug in message formatting - strikethrough doesn't "stick".

 

I wrote:

The strikethrough font attribute doesn't appear to save when editing a message. Bold and color do.

Oh, it doesn't post when creating a new message either.

I take that back. The strikethrough came through in the email, so it must be just a display problem in the archive.

Nope, not as simple as that either. Strikethrough shows in the archive for my message in this (beta) group, which was posted by email. But not in the archive of a message in my test group posted via the group. But it did come through in the email of that same message.

-- Shal


locked Re: Editing messages

 

Mark,

Displaying who edited it (or even just Poster vs Moderator) would
require a slight db change. Not a big deal if you guys think it's
important.
Yes I do.

So at least if a moderator comes along and changes my words at least there's evidence for other members to see that I may not have written that stupid (or TOS-violating) thing that is now in my message.

Is there planned to be a one-button "delete all my messages in this group" ability? With moderators able to edit my words I'm not sure I'll ever feel safe leaving any behind. But at least having them marked as to who edited the message will afford me some ability to credibly disavow the message.

-- Shal


locked Re: Attachments

 


On 16 November 2014 03:00, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:
> Now I find that setting Yahoo to "no html" means that mails *with* html
> are bounced...

That shouldn't happen, unless the message has no text/plain part.

I just re-tested this in my test group and verified that a message with both text/plain and text/HTML parts is accepted by a group set to "Plain Text" - the text/plain part posts and the text/HTML part is discarded.

​Hi Shal,

​I changed my group to text only and got complaints from the membership - so I changed it back again. Unlike you I didn't test it myself - mea culpa - so perhaps it was a temporary glitch. But now I've dangled pictures in front of them, it's unlikely they'd go back to  plain text.

Mark - sorry to discuss Yahoo problems on a IO-orientated forum - but perhaps it illustrates the mistakes that IO shouldn't make?

regards,
Ian


--


locked Bug in message formatting - strikethrough doesn't "stick".

 

Oops:

The strikethrough font attribute doesn't appear to save when editing a message. Bold and color do.

Oh, it doesn't post when creating a new message either.

-- Shal


locked Re: Editing messages

 

Mark,

I've just pushed to the site the ability to edit archived messages.
Also, the Edit and Delete buttons now also appear when viewing messages
in the Inbox view. Let me know if you see any issues.
I strongly believe that each edit should cause the message to be re-sent by email. Otherwise the email-only members are in the dark.

In fact, as things stand even those who read by web are in the dark, unless they happen to stumble upon the edited message. So maybe the edited message needs to have its date/time stamp replaced by the date/time of the edit. Or maybe be able to sort the archive by either the original or the last edited date/time.

As things stand, one might question what benefit there is to being able to edit a message, if no one but the person who made the edit knows that it happened. Just "correcting the record" might be benign, but it can also be corrosive if done in the dark.


Let me put this bluntly: I don't want to be a member of any group where a moderator might decide to "correct" my words, and I'm left none the wiser.

The ability to edit a message while pending can be abused (and almost certainly has been), but at least I as a member receiving messages (or monitoring recent posts in the archive) have an opportunity to notice such behavior and take appropriate action (ask why, unsubscribe, file a TOS violation, etc.).


On the flip side, I'm fairly sure that some group owners (myself included in some cases) will feel strongly about the sanctity of their groups' message archive. They'll either want an option to turn off message editing or a wiki-like way to view the prior revision(s). Or both.

There's also a question of using edit to bypass message moderation. Perhaps committing the edit to the archive should require moderator approval under the same terms as new posting by that member. That could work slickly with a wiki-history.

At the very least, moderators might want a notification when messages are edited. Obviously needed if the edits are held pending, but arguably also needed if the message doesn't get re-sent.


Chris Leong wrote:

What if there was a note indicating that the message had been edited by
a particular user on a particular date? That might curb potential
abuse.
I think a re-send will also curb potential abuse: it fully exposes any attempt at being underhanded.

Such as posting a message that says "people who read by email are the smart ones" then immediately editing it to read "people who read by email are dinosaurs". Or vice-versa.

-- Shal


locked Bug in the Moderator Activity log

 

Oops:

The log for my shalstest group has a couple entries from today stating:
"Shal Farley changed Shal's 'From' name's moderator privileges via web"
but in fact what I changed was that other me's Email Delivery setting. That other me has "Owner" role, so I don't even have the option to change its moderator privileges.

But thank you, by the way, for making the names in that log be links to the membership record. Likewise the Subject lines of messages in the Messages and Member Activity logs. Very nice. Events likewise please?

-- Shal


locked questionbcc

Cherrill <cdjamieson@...>
 

 
 
One of my members and I each attempted to send an email via bcc. to our group here at groups.io and our group at yahoo groups.
The one which went to groups.io was rejected for both of us.  So both of us then sent them individually to groups.io and they were accepted. 
 
Is this something which isn't allowed by groups.io to receive an email from the bcc. line ???
 
Thank you
 
Cherrill
 
 


locked Re: Attachments

 

Ian,

Now I find that setting Yahoo to "no html" means that mails *with* html
are bounced...
That shouldn't happen, unless the message has no text/plain part.

I just re-tested this in my test group and verified that a message with both text/plain and text/HTML parts is accepted by a group set to "Plain Text" - the text/plain part posts and the text/HTML part is discarded. The bottom of the message has appended the notation:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A message with no text/plain part is bounced in such a group, but this has always been true.

I'll agree that " HTML - Include Attachments as links" is the worst of
both worlds.
Not me. It is still my preferred setting for Yahoo Groups.

Specifically because it means the attachments are available in the archives. Seeing today that Yahoo has broken the stored attachment feature, and now requires sign-in for access to photo attachments, I might have to re-think that.

-- Shal


locked Re: Attachments

 

Mark,

I personally _hate_ this "feature" of Y! Groups. All attachments sent
through groups.io are sent along to the subscribers.
The "Store on site" option for attachments is actually quite useful - when it works (or worked).

As originally designed and implemented the link provided in lieu of each attachment is a permalink which allows access regardless of whether the user has a Yahoo account or is signed in. A part of the URL is random-generated so that a link to one attachment cannot be used to infer a link to other attachments; nor can the links be used to access other parts of the group's web site without sign-in.

The key advantage is that allows members who read the group's archive or digest (rather than individual messages) to have access to the attachments. With the other option (include in emails) the attachments are sent to members on individual messages, but no other members could access them.

Groups.io appears to implement the long-sought (but never implemented) "both" option - an attachment is both forwarded in individual messages and a copy kept on site for the archive. I haven't investigated what happens for members on digest (pending tonight's digest of my test group).

Another touted advantage was a reduction in the download burden for members on slow, limited or metered email connections; those members could decide if and when to download the attachments. But with the supremacy of Webmail and mobil apps these days this seems a very niche benefit. To be a real benefit this would need to be a membership option, rather than a group option, and perhaps tied to a size threshold for attachments to be included or linked.

-- Shal


locked Re: Creeping Facebook

 

Ian,

"Could I just say hooray for Facebook. I read your same post on the
Yahoo site, clicked on the attachment, was asked for my password,
couldn't be bothered, so moved on.
That's odd.

The store-on-site attachments are normally (or have been, I haven't tested recently) available via the email link without signing in. Maybe when they enhanced the handling of images a few months back they broke or forgot about that feature.

-- Shal


locked Re: Attachments

 


On 15 November 2014 17:44, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
I personally _hate_ this "feature" of Y! Groups. All attachments sent through groups..io are sent along to the subscribers.

​Good; "Like" ✔

My preferred setting before "neo"​ was "no attachments" which meant no MIME and each post was displayed in the default style of the mail client.

So there were no big downloads of pictures to delay the dial-up connection, no viruses or malware in the html and every post looked the same - the default text and style - no 48-point Comic Sans in Neon Purple from the extroverts.

Now I find that setting Yahoo to "no html" means that mails *with* html are bounced - so I have to put up with "HTML - No Attachments" which retains that 48-point Comic Sans - or whatever.

I'll agree that " HTML - Include Attachments as links" is the worst of both worlds.

Groups IO should encompass attachments in-line or added.



--


locked Re: Attachments

 

I personally _hate_ this "feature" of Y! Groups. All attachments sent through groups.io are sent along to the subscribers.

Mark

On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 5:14 AM, Laurence Taylor <g7mzh@...> wrote:
On 15/11/2014 12:35, Ian Gillis wrote:

> So any future mobile app. for Groups IO shouldn't demand a password to see a photo.

Will attachments be sent with the outgoing emails? Yahoo has taken to
removing them and adding a link (which isn't always visible!), which is
unhelpful if you want to keep them - as well as adding an extra stage of
work for the recipient.

--
rgds
LAurence
<><


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locked Attachments

Laurence Taylor
 

On 15/11/2014 12:35, Ian Gillis wrote:

So any future mobile app. for Groups IO shouldn't demand a password to see a photo.
Will attachments be sent with the outgoing emails? Yahoo has taken to
removing them and adding a link (which isn't always visible!), which is
unhelpful if you want to keep them - as well as adding an extra stage of
work for the recipient.

--
rgds
LAurence
<><


locked Creeping Facebook

 

One of the dinosaurs that I've mentioned before has started tinkering with the Facebook version of my main Yahoo group. After some lengthy email tuition he's managed to post a few messages. Since he's much respected in the group, inevitably he's dragged others with him - I hope Groups IO will fly before everyone becomes indoctrinated!

I've just observed an interesting effect. I'd enabled attachments on the Yahoo group to partially stem the leak of members by the provision of photos. The dinosaur posted some text with a picture on both groups. Here's a quote taken verbatim from a comment on the FB version by someone who was previously a long-term Facebook denier:

"Could I just say hooray for Facebook. I read your same post on the Yahoo site, clicked on the attachment, was asked for my password, couldn't be bothered, so moved on. On your post here I could see the photo without jumping through hoops." (She's using Gmail on iOS on an iPad).

So any future mobile app. for Groups IO shouldn't demand a password to see a photo.


locked Re: Site #changelog

Judy F.
 

Thanks Mark.  This is so refreshing to have someone that wants to make things easy and clear for the members.  Since a lot of these people are not computer literate or just enough to get themselves in trouble, every little bit helps.  Yahoo’s help is not helpful in some cases and in others, they have made changes and not updated the help. 

 

Judy F.

SW Florida - USA

 

From: Mark Fletcher [mailto:markf@corp.groups.io]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:41 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Site #updates

 

That is a good idea and I'll add it to the todo list. In the mean time, please keep pointing out terms that aren't clear. I want to make sure the site is as easy to use as possible.

 

Thanks,

Mark

 

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 3:38 PM, J. Faulkner <jfaulkner44@...> wrote:

Mark, this is where my terminology of things is lacking, but would it be possible to have a ? by the options and when you hover over it, it will explain what each one does?

 

Judy F.

SW Florida - USA

 

From: Mark Fletcher [mailto:markf@corp.groups.io]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:05 PM


To: beta@groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Site #updates

 

Agreed, but I'm not sure how to make it better without having the button be really long. :-/

 

Mark

 

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Linda Star-Freedman <donlin2@...> wrote:

That's good; wording is unclear though.

 

Linda

 

Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 12:55 PM

Subject: Re: [beta] Site #updates

 

That's exactly what it does.

 

Mark

 

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 9:50 AM, Linda Star-Freedman <donlin2@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,

Wouldn't Approve and Switch to Default Group Settings be more useful? 
Thanks,
Linda

 

 

Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 12:40 PM

Subject: Re: [beta] Site #updates

 

Hi Judy,

 

When viewing a pending message, if the person who sent the message is set to moderated (regardless of what the group is set to), there are now two buttons, 'Approve' and 'Approve & Unmoderate Sender'. 'Approve' does not change the posting status of the sender.

 

Thanks,

Mark