Date   

moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

Donald Hellen
 

Andy . . .

On Sun, 09 Jan 2022 13:21:35 -0800, "Andy" <AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:

If someone writes something, and then is removed from the group, we have denied him/her the right to delete their own message. Therefore, what was said about groups.io "cannot restrict a message owner from deleting their own written works" is not actually true.
I thought that a person who was removed from a group could contact Mark and be
able to delete their old messages if they chose to do so? Or that there was some
mechanism they could use for this.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

 

On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 01:21 PM, Andy wrote:
If someone Edits an existing message and doesn't send it out again, nobody would receive it with the edits, so their saved archive would not be correct.
Only moderators can do that anyway.

If someone writes something, and then is removed from the group, we have denied him/her the right to delete their own message.  Therefore, what was said about groups.io "cannot restrict a message owner from deleting their own written works" is not actually true.
Exactly right. Which gives the lie to the idea that letting them remove it is some sort of legal requirement. (Strictly speaking, I said you can't stop a *group member* from deleting their own messages in groups.io, which is true. If you substitute "message owner" for "group member," you of course can.)

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

 

True, I realized belatedly that the safe harbor law is only in the US.


On Jan 9, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Andy <AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:

On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 10:32 AM, Donald Hellen wrote:
Platforms such as this one are not responsible for the content uploaded by
others. They're protected by law, at least to some extent.

One thing to be conscious of, is the fact that groups have no national boundaries, the way laws do.  It may be less obvious to many of you.  Some groups here are very cosmopolitan, even if not intentionally.

Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

Andy
 

On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 11:11 AM, D R Stinson wrote:
I suspect the best way to preserve such evidence is to ... save all the messages from a group, perhaps as full featured digests...

You would also need to disable Editing of messages.  If someone Edits an existing message and doesn't send it out again, nobody would receive it with the edits, so their saved archive would not be correct.

It's a complicated situation.  And so far I think we are only talking about dealing with POSSIBLE consequences, without knowing if or what may be the actual problem.  If someone writes something, and then is removed from the group, we have denied him/her the right to delete their own message.  Therefore, what was said about groups.io "cannot restrict a message owner from deleting their own written works" is not actually true.

Andy


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

Andy
 

On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 10:32 AM, Donald Hellen wrote:
Platforms such as this one are not responsible for the content uploaded by
others. They're protected by law, at least to some extent.

One thing to be conscious of, is the fact that groups have no national boundaries, the way laws do.  It may be less obvious to many of you.  Some groups here are very cosmopolitan, even if not intentionally.

Andy


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

 

On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 08:11 AM, D R Stinson wrote:
taking away the right of a person to delete their own written works runs afoul of copyright law
Not true. Members give groups.io indefinite rights to publish their content.

As someone else noted, it most likely also runs afoul of GRDP.
I disagree with that, too. GROP allows them to request take-down of their personal data. Not content written by them. They can request take-down of data about them. Not by them, especially if they've already given rights. But this has been gone over and over in this group ad infinitum. I think it's allowed to stand because yahoo let them do it.

 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

 

On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 07:32 AM, Donald Hellen wrote:
Platforms such as this one are not responsible for the content uploaded by
others. They're protected by law, at least to some extent.
At least for now. Going off-topic: that law needs to be changed in certain cases.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

 

I understand Bob's concern. What he's looking for is a way to preserve evidence of slander or liable. Whether to protect the group or the author is irrelevant. Unfortunately taking away the right of a person to delete their own written works runs afoul of copyright law because it because it puts the group owner (as the person ultimately responsible for the group) in the position of taking ownership of the message (in essence, the copyright) away from the author. As someone else noted, it most likely also runs afoul of GRDP. This is why groups.io feels it cannot restrict a message owner from deleting their own written works.
 
I suspect the best way to preserve such evidence is to maintain a separate membership to receive and save all the messages from a group, perhaps as full featured digests, as formatting can influence how a message is understood. These can be held should some need arise. I think it might also be advisable to let all the members know, perhaps as a Special Notice so everyone sees it, as it may help members to be more circumspect about what they post.
 
Dano
___________________
 
On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 02:59 PM, Bob Bellizzi wrote:
an original in a screenshot of it on groups.io would be more desirable for possible defense
I'm just not seeing that, nor am I seeing a need for a defense. It's gone from your site. Over and done.

Regarding keeping tabs on members' actions, why not request an optional notification for post deletions? I still completely fail to see how disallowing members from deleting heir own posts even comes close to solving your problem. And on top of that, surely there are not a large number of people in your group actually perpetrating this unique kind of offense anyway?
 
--
J

 


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

Donald Hellen
 

On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 15:07:17 -0800, "J_Catlady" <j.olivia.catlady@...>
wrote:

I'm just not seeing that, nor am I seeing a need for a defense. It's gone from your site. Over and done.
If anything, the member who deleted the post may show he realized the post
shouldn't have been made in the first place, and that would leave the group off
the hook. That would point the finger at him, not the group.

Platforms such as this one are not responsible for the content uploaded by
others. They're protected by law, at least to some extent.

Donald



----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

Pat Pratt
 

Why can't you just moderate this member with this option in their membership file?

Override: moderate the first message of every topic this person starts
--
Pat Pratt


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

 

On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 10:29 PM, Christos Psarras wrote:
That message can be part of the evidence,
I don't understand what "evidence" everybody is talking about. Evidence for what? How can saving the hapless message be evidence for anything? It's gone from your group. In fact, the poster helped you in that way by removing it himself. I don't think you have any accountability for what other people do in their email. Suppose the NYT posted something libelous and then takes it down.  Meanwhile someone else has copied it and emailed it to others. IANAL but that's not your fault or your problem.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

 

Bob,

>>> I'm sure I have at least one moderator who keeps digests.  I hope.

You can setup an archive gmail account and have it get everything (from now on) from the group, it'll be there for evidence if needed in the future.


>>> disallowing members from deleting heir own posts
 
I could be wrong on this (not all that knowledgeable on it) but another reason this won't happen is GDRP, right?  Wouldn't the ability of the [mod/group/GIO] to restrict the user's data deletion by the user themselves run afoul of it? 


>>> Groups.io doesn't flag moderators/owners when someone deletes a post.

Like J said, you're really asking for having mode message-deleted notification.  That message can be part of the evidence, the rest would be the original email from the backup account mentioned above.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

Rubens
 

...
BB| The issue for us is that a member made
| an unverifiied, serious statemen about
| a specialist/surgeon.
| There are an adequate number of, let us
| say, repeaters, who might repeat this
| outside our group which could cause
| serious damage not only to his reputation
| but also to his livelyhood,


Welcome to the internet...
Nothing new about what you said.


[ ] Rubens




.


moderated Re: #misc Disappearing Database #misc

Pamela Tatt
 

On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 04:13 AM, JohnF wrote:
Any chance the app is incorrectly showing the "Delete Rows" button, and she butt-deleted them?

Just throwing out ideas....

JohnF

 On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 04:13 AM, JohnF wrote:
Any chance the app is incorrectly showing the "Delete Rows" button, and she butt-deleted them?

Just throwing out ideas....

JohnF

 John the person concerned says she was not on the computer at the time this happened and has not been on the database page for several weeks.

Mark, I have asked her some questions and following are the answers.  Her son works with computers and apparently knows his way around them -- I could not get to speak to him unfortunately.

 'I have had an in depth discussion with my son and he is of the opinion that it is not "at my end" that the problem lies.  
He has asked why you have had to re do the data base.  Do you not have a backup?
Also, is there not an  IP Address associated with the command to delete?  This would tell us where the instruction originated.

My son says it is a very complicated area but the ip address which is attached to all computers would be able to tell us where the command came from eg China, India or Sunshine Coast. Somehow, my email address has been attached to a command to delete, without me being involved.!  

I did run my anti virus yesterday and got a "no threats found" result.  Just to make 100% sure that I am in the clear, I asked my son to run his latest and up to date anti virus programme (he can access my computer as a team viewer) that he uses for work and that has come up with the same "no threats detected" result.'

I hope you can get to the bottom of this as I would hate it to happen to anyone else.
Thanks for everything you do,
Pamela


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

Andy
 

I don't get it.

If the offense was posting a defamatory message, then why worry about deleting the message?  The damage was done when that member posted the message, years ago.

It seems to me that if the messages were the problem, perhaps the member should have been put on moderation or deleted for posting the message, not for deleting it years later.

Do you suggest you have a responsibility to defend that member if someone sues him?

Andy


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

 

On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 03:00 PM, Judy F. wrote:
We have a rule on our buying and selling group, that members cannot delete or edit their approved ads (messages
You would have no way of enforcing the no-deletion other than removing the member of putting them on moderation if they do it. You can't prevent members from deleting their own posts in groups.io. You can prevent editing by setting your group settings to disallow it.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

 

On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 02:59 PM, Bob Bellizzi wrote:
an original in a screenshot of it on groups.io would be more desirable for possible defense
I'm just not seeing that, nor am I seeing a need for a defense. It's gone from your site. Over and done.

Regarding keeping tabs on members' actions, why not request an optional notification for post deletions? I still completely fail to see how disallowing members from deleting heir own posts even comes close to solving your problem. And on top of that, surely there are not a large number of people in your group actually perpetrating this unique kind of offense anyway?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

Judy F.
 

Hi Duane and others.  We have a rule on our buying and selling group, that members cannot delete or edit their approved ads (messages).  As moderators, we refer to those messages to confirm various things if the member is posting again, etc.. 

Hopefully this won't be considered since we are dealing with the Notify Members box already that is still being checked when asked not to.. 

Please remember what is good for one group, may not be good for another. 

Thank you,
Judy F.
SW Florida - USA


On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 01:27 PM, Duane wrote:
On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 12:19 PM, Bob Bellizzi wrote:
I thought that we had a selection that limted post deletion to the Owners/moderators.
That's never been the case.  Members have always been able to delete their own posts.  However, it's quite likely that someone on the group will have the original message in their email files/archives.  It also won't delete anything quoted in a reply, so deleting isn't all that effective.  There IS an option to prevent them from editing their messages.

Duane


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

Bob Bellizzi
 

J. 
Groups.io doesn't flag moderators/owners when someone deletes a post.
So he deleted it after I moderated him and before I could copy it.
While there are about 3200 copies in our members' hands an original in a screenshot of it on groups.io would be more desirable for possible defense

Re: your comment of why allow him to remain in the group.  Since there is no flag to us that someone  has deleted a post, the only reason I knew was because he just became an issue I I  invesgtigated.  There's no way I would be able to keep tabs on 3200 + members' actions.
--

Bob Bellizzi
FuchsFriends@groups.io online  support  group for corneal dystrophy patients & caregivers
The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation 


moderated Re: Provide option to disable ability of members to delete their posts #suggestion

 

On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 02:43 PM, Chris Jones wrote:
 you have left him in the position of being able to compromise your group
True but all of that seems irrelevant to disallowing this group member to remove his own posts. It seems what Bob really wants is to get rid of the posts anyway.
This is not adding up for me. I must be missing something? Surely the worry is not about emails floating around. You can't be sued for that - only for what remains on the site, if even that.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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