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moderated Re: Activity log #outage

Andy
 

Thank you, Mark.  I think we fell into that window, in #30729 about the missing message and log entries.  The message in question was sent at 4:38 AM Pacific time today, and gone a few hours later.

So, is the theory that the message was legitimately deleted by its author, and the only things lost were the log entries for sending and deleting it?

Have there been other outages in the last month or so?  I have seen other things I couldn't explain in the log.

Andy


moderated Activity log #outage

 

Hi All,

Yesterday, between 1:07pm and 1:38pm Pacific time and again this morning between 4:18am and 5:24am Pacific time, the connections to the activity database were exhausted. What this means is that during those times, access to the activity log was slow or errored out. Also, some writes to the activity log were not recorded; I'm not sure how many.

When this happened yesterday, I fixed the issue by restarting all the services. I then spent some time trying to figure out what caused it, but was unable to come up with a reason. When it happened again this morning, I had a second data point and was able to track down the problem and fix it. It turned out that an export of a very large group (and subgroups), would trigger this. The code involved had not been touched in a very long time; it just turned out that, between the large size of the group involved combined with the ever increasing load on our databases caused this to become a problem.

I've re-written the part of the export group process so that this does not happen again. I still need to think through how I can be notified more quickly when an intermittent issue like this happens.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

 

Bruce,
I don't think your request sparked controversy, except as a tangent by people misunderstanding the Moderated attribute and what it applies. I'd be fine with your disable option, and I also think that fixing the moderated-first-message bug will give you another good option.
Like you, I'm done here, too!
Best of luck!
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

 

These are basic concepts.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

 

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 08:24 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
The topic inherits the behaviour from the hashtag.
No. The topic AQUIRES the behavior from the hashtag. It does not "inherit" the behavior. Hashtags are not, and cannot be, moderated. Only topics can be modered.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Really lock a topic #suggestion

 

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 08:39 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
I find myself unable to support this. It doesn't address my use case, inasmuch as I would now have to moderate the first message,
Bruce,

The whole point of my immediately prior message was to explain to you that I think having to moderate the first message is a bug (or design flaw) and I expect that to be fixed! If fixed, you would NOT have to moderate the first message. That's the point.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

 

You're using hashtags incorrectly. They act on topics, not individual messages.
"When a hashtag is set to Moderated, messages sent to topics tagged with it require approval by a moderator."
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Really lock a topic #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 10:31 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I just posted this request:
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/30721
The request is to change "Moderated" hashtags so that only replies to the topic are moderated, not the first message itself (which seems to make no sense).
J -- Yeah, I saw that.

If that gets implemented, then Bruce, all you have to do is tell your mods to put the same hashtag on the post that they've already been doing (the one that's Locked), but make the tag both Moderated and Locked.
I find myself unable to support this. It doesn't address my use case, inasmuch as I would now have to moderate the first message, which didn't require that before. Not only that, but as Andy and Malcolm have already stated, it breaks existing behavior that some may rely upon. I struggle to understand why this is preferable to implementing the original proposal, which doesn't break anything.

Anyway, this is my last post on the subject. My suggestion will stand or fall on its own merits. Never in my wildest dreams did I think it would spark such controversy.

Bruce


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

Malcolm Austen
 

On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 14:54:51 -0000, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 07:46 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
It's the use of the hashtag that is moderated.
No, it's the Topic behavior. I think you have been using Moderated hashtags incorrectly.

The topic inherits the behaviour from the hashtag. I believe I use hashtags correctly but that you want a new and different behaviour which could only be done by adding a new hashtag property, not by changing the behaviour of an existing and useful one.

Malcolm.

--
Malcolm Austen - email: malcolm.austen@...


moderated Re: Missing messages, and missing entries in the Activity Log #bug

Andy
 

I'm sure you will see parallels with message 30720.  They might be related.


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

Malcolm Austen
 

On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 14:52:54 -0000, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 07:46 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
I don't want to allow every group member to post any message with, say, #admin on it!!
 Then set that hashtag to "use by mods only."

Yea, in fact I have, so here's a better example ...

Suppose I have a general discussion list with a hashtag #announcement that I want to allow anyone to use but always want it moderated so I can check it really is a suitable announcement for the group.

Your change would prevent me doing that wouldn't it?

Malcolm.

--
Malcolm Austen - email: malcolm.austen@...


moderated Missing messages, and missing entries in the Activity Log #bug

Andy
 

A few weeks ago, I started working on a bug report about things that I was not finding in my group's Activity Log and/or in email messages to me as Moderator.  It was taking me some time to do that (while I had other things to do), and I didn't get around to finishing.  I was concerned about what seemed like a lack of data integrity in groups.io's servers.

Well I'm back.

Three hours ago, someone sent my group a message.  I received it in my email, and I know others must have, because one of my co-moderators replied to it.

Then I went to re-read the message at the groups.io web interface -- but the message isn't there!

Maybe author deleted it.  I checked the Activity Log.  No, there is o record that the author deleted it.  No record that anyone deleted it.

In fact, there is no record that the author SENT it either!  It's like it never existed!  What is going on?

I double-checked that the message had been sent to the whole group, and not just the moderators.  Yup, whole group.

I clicked the "View/Reply Online" link at the bottom of the message, which SHOULD bring me to just that one message online.  The result?  "Message Not Found"!  And the blue line that says "That message number does not exist. The message may have been deleted."

So if the logs say the author didn't delete it and the moderators didn't delete it, then where did it go?  It had a message number.  I didn't imagine it.  And how did the message get there in the first place if the author didn't send it, in the eyes of groups.io?

Are the groups.io servers getting out of sync?  Is the database that supports our groups becoming corrupted?

Andy


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

 

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 07:46 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
It's the use of the hashtag that is moderated.
No, it's the Topic behavior. I think you have been using Moderated hashtags incorrectly.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

 

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 07:46 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
I don't want to allow every group member to post any message with, say, #admin on it!!
Then set that hashtag to "use by mods only."
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

 

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 07:36 AM, Andy wrote:
"serves no obvious useful purpose" may in fact be wrong.
Which is why I used the word "obvious." I challenge anyone to think of a use for this. I think it's a bug. Think about it: it forces the creator of the message/topic themselves to go through moderation when creating the topic. They can't even post the topic without having it approved! If you want that forced on a member, then put the member themself on moderation. So I challenge anyone to think of something - even something "devious" - useful about this behavior. It strikes me as simply, and obviously, wrong.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

Malcolm Austen
 

On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 14:08:27 -0000, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

When you put a Moderated hashtag on an already existing topic, all replies from that point on are, correctly, moderated. But if you put such a hashtag on a Topic when it is first created (i.e., when you post the first message), even the first message itself is moderated. This seems contrary to intention (hence my using #bug in addition to #suggestion for this conversation) and serves no obvious useful purspose. All it does is subject the creator of the post to moderation in the very post itself.

It's the use of the hashtag that is moderated. I don't want to allow every group member to post any message with, say, #admin on it!!

The current operation is exactly right, the suggestion would break things! The only use I can enviage for moderated replies only would be on a topic started by a moderator and they can easily allow their own message through (as I do with #admin).

The suggestion is to change the behavior (and also the description - see below) of the tag so that for new topics with the tag, only replies to the topic are moderated, not the first message itself.

As above, Nooo, please not.

The description on the hashtag page currently reads "Messages with this hashtag will be moderated." It should read "Replies to topics with this hashtag are moderated."

The current text is right. The only possible change I could see as sensible would perhaps to allow hashtags to have alternative settings of either "moderated" or "moderate replies".

Malcolm.

--
Malcolm Austen - email: malcolm.austen@...


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

Andy
 

Sorry --

What I meant by "It might serve a useful purpose" was that the suggestion that the present behavior "serves no obvious useful purpose" may in fact be wrong.  Even though you didn't see any use to it, it might have been wanted that way by someone else.

Andy


moderated Re: Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

Andy
 

It might serve a useful purpose.

If the owners of a group want a hastag to require moderation, they might want that to happen all the time, not only for replies.  Group members can be devious and do things you may not want them to do.

Andy


moderated Re: Really lock a topic #suggestion

 

I just posted this request:
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/30721
The request is to change "Moderated" hashtags so that only replies to the topic are moderated, not the first message itself (which seems to make no sense).

If that gets implemented, then Bruce, all you have to do is tell your mods to put the same hashtag on the post that they've already been doing (the one that's Locked), but make the tag both Moderated and Locked. That's possible to do (I just tested). So when any of them tries to reply, it will go through moderation and you can stop it.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Change "Moderated" hashtag new topics so only the replies are moderated #suggestion #bug

 

When you put a Moderated hashtag on an already existing topic, all replies from that point on are, correctly, moderated. But if you put such a hashtag on a Topic when it is first created (i.e., when you post the first message), even the first message itself is moderated. This seems contrary to intention (hence my using #bug in addition to #suggestion for this conversation) and serves no obvious useful purspose. All it does is subject the creator of the post to moderation in the very post itself.

The suggestion is to change the behavior (and also the description - see below) of the tag so that for new topics with the tag, only replies to the topic are moderated, not the first message itself.

The description on the hashtag page currently reads "Messages with this hashtag will be moderated." It should read "Replies to topics with this hashtag are moderated."
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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