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moderated Re: Icon display consistency issue when setting a topic to both locked and moderated #bug

Duane
 

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 11:04 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
not to display two icons which seem contradictory to group members, just so that mods will know that THEIR posts to the topic will go through moderation
I suspect that very few members pay any attention to the icons.  I know mine don't, unless it's one of the mods.  As long as the Reply button is gone when it's locked, I don't see that it would be a big problem to also have the moderated icon.

Duane


moderated Re: Icon display consistency issue when setting a topic to both locked and moderated #bug

 

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 11:54 AM, Christos Psarras wrote:

>>> Why? A locked topic does not accept further posts irrespective of any moderation status.

Not a 100% correct statement; from regular users, yes it doesn't, but it still accepts messages from admins just fine.  The difference is that if also moderated, the message goes into pending, but if not it sails through.

It was only recently that locked topics became postable by mods (courtesy of strong argument here and eventual implementation by Mark). It makes more sense to me not to display two icons which seem contradictory to group members, just so that mods will know that THEIR posts to the topic will go through moderation.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Icon display consistency issue when setting a topic to both locked and moderated #bug

 

I think the current display protocol is correct. Even though internally a topic may be both locked and moderated, what that really means is that it is locked, and that if and when it becomes unlocked, it reverts to moderated. It is not really both at the same time. "Moderated" has no meaning if the topic is locked (i.e., can't be posted to), and having both icons would make no sense to group members. It is a completely different situation from Locked and Sticky, which can (meaningfully) exist at the same time, internally AND externally.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Icon display consistency issue when setting a topic to both locked and moderated #bug

 

Chris,

>>> Why? A locked topic does not accept further posts irrespective of any moderation status.

Not a 100% correct statement; from regular users, yes it doesn't, but it still accepts messages from admins just fine.  The difference is that if also moderated, the message goes into pending, but if not it sails through.

 

>>> a topic can be Moderated or it can be Locked, but it cannot be both at the same time.

Wait, how can you say that when one can set the topic to both?  Try it and you'll see, moderate a topic and moderated icon shows up.  Then lock it, moderated icon disappears and gets replaced by the locked icon.  Topic is now both locked and moderated but only the locked icon shows up.  Unlock it, locked icon goes away and gets replaced by moderated icon.

This works differently than the sticky icon which "appends" to any existing constraint/icon.

 

>>> I would argue that having both Locked and Moderated flags would be a source of confusion.

I personally don't see how it would, when the system itself allows one to set it to both.  If nothing else, to me it's a visual reminder that I have set that topic to both constraints.

Cheers,
Christos

 


moderated Re: Calendar Reminders #bug

Michael Pavan
 

Hi Andy,
On 09/21/2021 3:33 AM Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:
 
 
On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 04:14 AM, Michael Pavan wrote:
The MO 2021-09-20 11am "Message Approval require" notice was sent, but a Moderator approved it (before I got to it) thinking it would be sent, rather than posted to the Messages archive and not sent to members (as there is no verbiage in the notice saying what 'Approval' means.
I'm sensing confusion on your Moderators part. Approval of a message is surely simple and it means that the message is posted to the message archive at least.
Yes, it confusing to not have the "Message Approval required" email notice fail to spell out what the consequences of Approval are, especially when there are Settings that make Approval counter-intuitive. 
 
As an owner, you can set the no-email option on a hashtag to stop a message being emailed out
Yes, as Owner this Setting is selected to prevent Hashtags from being perpetrated, as there is no "OFF" switch for them, however the Calendar's design does not allow any WORK AROUND that is 'fool proof'.
and members can opt how to receive messages (or not) by their subscription settings and/or muting hashtags.
Yes, members have many options.
My goal is to have simple, uncluttered Reminders sent of in-person gatherings of amateur (mostly non-tech savvy) musicians (who are somewhat email competent, but avoid the website as something that is confusing and intimidating to them).
 
-Put in a simple toggle to "Allow / not Allow" all Hashtags or 2 toggles: one for automated 'system' hashtags and another for manual 'human-added' hashtags. Or at least spell out what the consequences of Approval, or Rejection by email is in the "Message Approval require" notices
Is this a suggestion or a bug?
I suppose it could/should really be both.
I didn't want the #bug to be overlooked among criticism of a #suggestion, so I only #hashtagged it as a #bug, believing that the #hashtag is supposed to focus what the post is about.
 
The #bug is that no "Message Approval required" notice was sent, and I thought I should post so that it was known, and could be fixed to prevent future (non)occurrences.
 
Yes, you do point out that explaining the context reveals that a suggestion is also in order. I had thought about also adding a #suggestion hashtag to the subject line, but failed to do that.
 
I'm not a texter (neither are virtually all members of all my groups) and do not like the graffiti-esque appearance of #hashtags cluttering Subject lines, so I'm not really comfortable with being a perpetrator of them, but since [beta] wants them used I'm trying.
 
Cheers,
Michael


moderated Re: Looks good. One thought.... #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 07:32 PM, rich hurd wrote:
Logging out is sometimes a chore.  If there was a way to “switch hats” as it weee
Firstly your query might have been better directed towards either Group_Help or the Group Managers Forum, but here goes...

It isn't entirely clear from your post but my reading of it is that your two subscriptions are set up using two different email addresses, meaning that you actually have two separate accounts with Groups.io.

Unless there is a good reason why this should be so I would suggest merging the accounts into one; once done that would obviate any need to log out of one account so that you access the other.

To Merge Accounts see the Members Manual in the Help Centre.

Chris


moderated Re: The Groups.io app is now live for iOS and Android #update

Derek Milliner
 

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 07:31 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
or bring everything back to the main beta group?
And if so, would want the #app, #ios, #android hashtags added for the group?


moderated Re: Calendar Reminders #bug

Andy Wedge
 

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 04:14 AM, Michael Pavan wrote:
The MO 2021-09-20 11am "Message Approval require" notice was sent, but a Moderator approved it (before I got to it) thinking it would be sent, rather than posted to the Messages archive and not sent to members (as there is no verbiage in the notice saying what 'Approval' means.
I'm sensing confusion on your Moderators part. Approval of a message is surely simple and it means that the message is posted to the message archive at least. As an owner, you can set the no-email option on a hashtag to stop a message being emailed out and members can opt how to receive messages (or not) by their subscription settings and/or muting hashtags.

-Put in a simple toggle to "Allow / not Allow" all Hashtags or 2 toggles: one for automated 'system' hashtags and another for manual 'human-added' hashtags. Or at least spell out what the consequences of Approval, or Rejection by email is in the "Message Approval require" notices
Is this a suggestion or a bug?

Andy


moderated Re: Icon display consistency issue when setting a topic to both locked and moderated #bug

Chris Jones
 

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 04:13 AM, Christos Psarras wrote:
Shouldn't it display both the locked & moderated icons?
Why? A locked topic does not accept further posts irrespective of any moderation status. I would argue that having both Locked and Moderated flags would be a source of confusion; a topic can be Moderated or it can be Locked, but it cannot be both at the same time.

Chris.


moderated Re: The Groups.io app is now live for iOS and Android #update

Andy Wedge
 

Hi Mark,

On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 11:54 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
I'm happy to announce that the Groups.io app is now available for both iOS and Android.
Do you still wish to use the app subgroup to raise bugs on these or bring everything back to the main beta group?  There have already been some issues raised in this topic so it may be worth clarifying.

Thanks
Andy


moderated Calendar Reminders #bug

Michael Pavan
 

There is no "OFF SWITCH" for Hashtags, so my WORK AROUND is these settings (below) and then to edit the Hashtags (and excess verbiage) out of each Reminder before Approving.
 
Admin > Settings: Message Policies:
- Hashtags Required is unchecked
- Hashtag Permissions is Messages from members can only be tagged with existing hashtags, otherwise the message is bounced
 
and for each and every hashtag (listed below):
#cal-cancelled
#cal-invite
#cal-notice
#cal-reminder
#file
#file-notice
#guidelines-notice
#monthly-notice
#photo
#photo-notice
#wiki
#wiki-notice
Admin > Hashtags: #cal-reminder: Edit Tag: Hashtags:
- No Email (Messages with this tag will not be emailed to the group) is checked
- Moderated (Messages with this hashtag will be moderated.) is checked
- Locked (Topics created with this hashtag will be locked immediately.) is checked
- Reply To is Reply to Moderators
- Use by Mods Only (Only moderators can tag topics with this hashtag.) is checked
- Replies by Mods Only (Only moderators can reply to topics tagged with this hashtag.) is checked

I have a monthly Event set up for 3rd Tuesdays 7pm Eastern Time (America/New York) on our Group Calendar
with Reminders set for 5 days and 32 hours before.
For the TU 2021-09-21 7pm EDT (UTC-4 America/New York) event:
- No TH 2021-09-16 7pm "Message Approval require" notice was sent, nor did the Reminder occur.
- The MO 2021-09-20 11am "Message Approval require" notice was sent, but a Moderator approved it (before I got to it) thinking it would be sent, rather than posted to the Messages archive and not sent to members (as there is no verbiage in the notice saying what 'Approval' means.
This is different from the behavior of Calendar notices in previous months.

Mark
 
Please:
- Check why "Message Approval require" notices are not sent out
 
-Put in a simple toggle to "Allow / not Allow" all Hashtags
or 2 toggles: one for automated 'system' hashtags and another for manual 'human-added' hashtags.
Or at least spell out what the consequences of Approval, or Rejection by email is in the "Message Approval require" notices.
 
Thanks,
Michael
 
 
 
 


moderated Icon display consistency issue when setting a topic to both locked and moderated #bug

 

Hi Mark,

This is a minor display consistency issue in Topics view.  A topic can be set to both locked and moderated.  But unlike the combo of moderated & sticky or locked & sticky, which display both the locked or moderated icon alongside the sticky icon, the locked & moderated combo only shows the locked icon.  Shouldn't it display both the locked & moderated icons?   (plus the the sticky icon as the third icon if that's also set, or is it a matter of having only two available slots to show prefix icons?)
 
Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Error message on trying to attach files #bug

 

Well, that was interesting (or useless?). I got the same behavior my group member experienced, namely, it happened on the first attempt but not on the second. Seems flakey. I should note that the situation is that I'm trying to insert (not attach) a screenshot, which is a png. Maybe that's not what "insert picture" acts on, maybe that only accepts a jpg? If so, then there should be a comprehensible error message (e.g., "you can only insert jpgs") instead of the jabberwocky it puts out.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: The Groups.io app is now live for iOS and Android #update

Pamela Tatt
 

Hi Mark,

I have the Android app - unfortunately "Files" dont open??
Maybe there is a bug in the system?

We rely a lot on our Files and many of our members have mentioned this problem.

Thanks for all you do to make our G.io experience so 'painless'

Pamela
Knit4Charities


moderated Re: Replies to moderated topics which end up starting new topics still get moderated #bug

 

Bruce,

>>> If I set up a topic to be moderated, I don't want people to be able to circumvent that setting simply by changing the subject line.


I can see some value in it behaving this way for your scenario, if the "new topic" is really a masqueraded reply to the moderated topic with just a different subject.  On the other hand though, what's to stop the offender from just creating a brand new topic in this case?  I mean, in an unmoderated group, a perpetrator trying to pull this off on purpose online, will see the green "message to be approved by the mods" notice and can easily just create a new topic then which will sail through.  Yes, not as obvious to the email users though, but then again, since one knows their group is not moderated, after they see their message not coming through normally as expected, they may resubmit it as a new topic this time, which will now go through.

>>> Holding it in moderation also gives me an opportunity to change it back, if that seems like the appropriate thing to do

Yes, if its' related to the previous moderated topic, but what if it doesn't and it's genuinely a new unrelated topic?

I don't know, if this is by design as a hidden and undocumented easter-egg, maybe the answer is not to change the logic but instead enhance a couple of things to make it obvious to the mods that's what happened.  For example, when this happens modify the pending message so the subject becomes something like this: (obviously only if the previous topic was moderated of course)

new-topic-subject [WAS: old-topic-subject]

This would make it clearer and also make the job of editing it back to the previous subject easier.

Or enhance the Activity log entry.  Right now the entry looks like the regular one:

XYZ sent message "new-topic-subject" requiring approval because the topic is moderated, via email

which is misleading because this (new) topic is not really/shouldn't be moderated since the group is not moderated.  Maybe leave the subject as is in the pending message but indicate it here:

XYZ sent message "new-topic-subject [WAS: old-topic-subject]" requiring approval because the topic is moderated, via email


Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Replies to moderated topics which end up starting new topics still get moderated #bug

 

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 03:31 PM, Christos Psarras wrote:
(not sure if it also inherits anything else besides the moderated property)
BTW just tested this part for all the other properties visible & available to me (Locked, Sticky, ReplyTo) and those do not get inherited in the new topic.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Replies to moderated topics which end up starting new topics still get moderated #bug

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 07:30 PM, Christos Psarras wrote:
4. When the message is parsed, the new-topic subject rules are applied but it seems the in-reply-to rules are also applied.
5. This causes the message to correctly create a new topic (TopicNEW) which technically should not be moderated as it's a new topic, but the message still ends up in the pending queue.
Christos -- Interesting.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, but I do like the existing behavior. If I set up a topic to be moderated, I don't want people to be able to circumvent that setting simply by changing the subject line. Holding it in moderation also gives me an opportunity to change it back, if that seems like the appropriate thing to do.

If that means I occasionally have to moderate a message that doesn't really need it, so be it (the fact that they'll end up waiting for their post to appear is a bonus).

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Replies to moderated topics which end up starting new topics still get moderated #bug

 

Andy,

So, it seems that any change of subject on a message posted by email will start a new topic.
I think you misunderstood what the issue is.  The new topic creation part works fine and as expected, since the subject was changed. (to a unique one)

Assuming the code order of evaluation in the threading algorithm is as described in the doc:

1a. The reply rules check is (correctly) performed because the message headers contain the In-Reply-To entry and it references an existing previous topic (which happened to be moderated in this case) ...
1b. .. and the subject check is then performed but since it's different, the algorithm now correctly creates a new topic.

2. However, the code also inadvertently inherits/applies the moderated property of the aforementioned referenced previous topic ID; or alternatively it doesn't reset/clear the mod property for the new topic, which is the bug, it causes a brand new topic to inherit the moderated property of a previous topic when there shouldn't be any association to the old topic since it's a new topic.  (not sure if it also inherits anything else besides the moderated property)

It's one of those bugs that will only show under certain circumstances, under normal conditions in an unmoderated group if nothing gets moderated no one will know.  It only showed up because I specifically moderated a topic to (gently) end discussion on it (without locking it) and someone used a message from that thread but also changed the subject so they can create a new topic, causing the new topic to be moderated.  If I hadn't moderated that previous topic I'd have no clue this is happening.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Replies to moderated topics which end up starting new topics still get moderated #bug

Andy Wedge
 

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 12:30 AM, Christos Psarras wrote:
This may be an unintended behavior Reply-Rules bug, but this is what's happening:
The first item listed in the documentation for the threading algorithm has two conditions, the reply-to field and the subject. If the subject is changed then this first test cannot be met so then we are into checking where the message came from (online or email) and then checking matching subject and dates.  So, it seems that any change of subject on a message posted by email will start a new topic.

Andy


moderated Re: Error message on trying to attach files #bug

 

Mark,

I just tried to send a bug report message to this group, and insert (not attach) a screenshot of the error, and I got the exact same error my group member got. It's been difficult and confusing to report here, because I was trying to insert a screenshot OF THE ORIGINAL ERROR (which involved the "improved draft saving" and error "there was an error saving the draft," multiple times), but when I tried to insert those screenshots, I got the OTHER error regarding insertion of the screenshot. So the insertion error message was appearing BELOW the draft-saving error message. This is real. I'll try it again and next time, will try to attach (not insert) the screenshot.

Meanwhile, the "improved draft saving" error message bug is still there, at least in the non-test-version. Can we get an update on whether and when that is fixed in the currently running (non-test) version? Otherwise I don't know whether to continue to report the bugs.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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