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moderated Re: Banned member is still a member?? #bug

Andy
 

re: "Could you give us the most recent sequence of events in their activity log?"

Here is the sequence of events:

Aug. 12, approx. 2 AM -- He subscribed himself, via email.
Aug. 12, shortly after (I think within 1 hour) -- I discovered the new member.
Aug. 12, minutes later -- I changed his permissions (*).
Aug. 12, seconds later -- I banned him from the group.
Aug. 12, seconds later -- I verified that he was no longer listed at the top of the Members list.
Aug. 13, 4:45 PM -- He unsubscribed himself, via web.

(*)  I routinely lock up their permissions right before banning them.  It should not matter, because when they're gone, they're gone (right??), but I do it anyway just in case.

So I think about 38 hours passed between being banned, and him unsubscribing himself.

In case you wonder why I banned him so quickly, I have reasons.

Andy


moderated Re: Banned member is still a member?? #bug

 

On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 05:33 AM, Andy wrote:

Yesterday I banned someone from our group.  Today, about 30 hours later,
that same member apparently unsubscribed himself from the group, via the web.

How is that possible?  Doesn't banning them make them not a group member
anymore?

It was the same exact address.  After banning them, I saw that they were no
longer listed in the Members list.
In the Members list click the funnel icon, check Banned, click Apply to get the banned list. Is that email address in the Banned list?

Also, in Activity search for that email address. Do you see that you banned that address? What do you see after that?


moderated Re: Banned member is still a member?? #bug

 

Also, do you have any subgroups?
Is the most activity for this member just (1) you banned them, and (2) they unsubbed? Is there anything in between?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Banned member is still a member?? #bug

 

Yes, sorry I missed that, and the fact that they were banned only yesterday. If they’re truly banned they should not be able to even see the home page. I’m assuming their address appears in the banned members and past members lists (the latter if you have a premium group), and not in the members list? Just checking. If not, then you might try banning the address again. 


On Aug 13, 2021, at 9:03 PM, Andy <AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:

Like I said in the base note, they unsubbed via the web.  That is what bothers me.  I think they should not have been able to do that.

Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Banned member is still a member?? #bug

Andy
 

Like I said in the base note, they unsubbed via the web.  That is what bothers me.  I think they should not have been able to do that.

Andy


moderated Re: Banned member is still a member?? #bug

 

Does it show them unsubbing via email or via the web? If they're banned, they should not be able to access the site at all. I'm guessing this was via email? I'm going to try to reproduce that. I'm wondering whether they were banned, then tried to apply via email (which would not inform them they were banned), then sent an unsub email. Or, possibly just sent an unsub email after being banned and it mistakenly went into the log as such instead of just being discarded.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Banned member is still a member?? #bug

 

If it was yesterday and today, it doesn't apply. This was at least a year ago, maybe more. I knew it was a longshot but thought I'd mention it just in case. I would still like to see the chronology of this member's activity. Just very curious.

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 8:40 PM Andy <AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:
re: "One other thing, which I didn't mention at first because the bug has been fixed: awhile back, banning someone did not actually remove them from the group. You had to remove them manually by hand afterwards. That's been fixed, but if this member was banned before the bug was fixed, then he wasn't removed and could later unsub."

How long ago was that fixed?

The sequence I'm talking about, happened yesterday and today.

Andy


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Banned member is still a member?? #bug

Andy
 

re: "One other thing, which I didn't mention at first because the bug has been fixed: awhile back, banning someone did not actually remove them from the group. You had to remove them manually by hand afterwards. That's been fixed, but if this member was banned before the bug was fixed, then he wasn't removed and could later unsub."

How long ago was that fixed?

The sequence I'm talking about, happened yesterday and today.

Andy


moderated Re: Banned member is still a member?? #bug

 

One other thing, which I didn't mention at first because the bug has been fixed: awhile back, banning someone did not actually remove them from the group. You had to remove them manually by hand afterwards. That's been fixed, but if this member was banned before the bug was fixed, then he wasn't removed and could later unsub.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Banned member is still a member?? #bug

 

I am very curious about/interested in this. There is some weirdnedss with banned members still having a membership record (not sure those are the correct terms). I've seen, for example, banned members' profiles give the "date joined" as the date they were banned. (Their profiles are viewable in their display names, as I mentioned in a previous thread, by mods after doing a search on the message list in which any of the banned members' messages are returned.)

I wanted to try to see if I could reproduce this, out of curiosity, but don't have enough info. For example, someone who applies for membership in a restricted group can, before having their application acted on, "unsubscribe" from the group even though they are not even in it yet. So the bug you're experiencing might be due to some unusual chronology of events. Could you give us the most recent sequence of events in their activity log?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Banned member is still a member?? #bug

Andy
 

Yesterday I banned someone from our group.  Today, about 30 hours later, that same member apparently unsubscribed himself from the group, via the web.

How is that possible?  Doesn't banning them make them not a group member anymore?

It was the same exact address.  After banning them, I saw that they were no longer listed in the Members list.  And yet, they could somehow get access to their group Subscription and unsubscribe themself.  How?

I'm not sure what is going on.  Part of my concern is that I don't want a banned member to have access to any of the group's resources, yet it appears that they might have had access to the group, and were only LISTED as not being a member anymore.

Confused,
Andy


moderated Re: Log rejected messages #suggestion

 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 10:05 AM, Duane wrote:
you're right back to having to search through it
Actually that's not the case if you implement the way I suggested, namely, the activity log entries would contain links to the content of whatever was done. See my prior message. So you see that someone rejected a message and you could go right to it in the "unsent message archive" (or whatever it would be called). Just as now, you see that someone approved a message and can go right to it in the message archive. Completely analogous, no searching required.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Log rejected messages #suggestion

 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 10:05 AM, Duane wrote:
you'd get the same results by using your own email records for searching.
Maybe but the same could be said of the message archive. Why not just search through all your emails for any groups.io message you want to find? In fact, wjhy not go back to a pure email-only system?

I think storing the non-group-sent messages in a dedicated archive is better than glomming them all into the activity log, because I agree with Andy that that bogs it down. And already, some of them are going there anyway (mod message to member, invite, rejection notice). The glaring lack are the rejected messages themselves. I also don't see bcc'ing all mods by default as "a little tweak." Maybe a programming little tweak, but large in its effect.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Log rejected messages #suggestion

Duane
 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 10:05 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Maybe there could be a separate message archive for messages and notices that don't go to the group: rejected messages from group members, rejection notifications, rejected messages from non-group members (I think this one might be better as a group option), invite messages, etc.
It seems to me that if all this is stored on site, you're right back to having to search through it to get the information you want.  Seems like a lot of work/coding for little return when you'd get the same results by using your own email records for searching.  A little tweak, having rejection notices sent to all moderators by default, would accomplish the intended solution.  That wouldn't be foolproof though because some moderators wouldn't want to send it to all other mods and would turn off the check box.

Duane


moderated moderation icon doesn't show up on individual messages in a topic moderated via a hashtag #bug

 

I found out the other day that if a topic is moderated via a hashtag, the individual messages within that topic don't show the "moderated" icon. Whereas in topics moderated by hand, the individual messages do correctly show the tag. To make the icon show up in the messages, I had to go in and re-moderate the topic by hand.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Log rejected messages #suggestion

 

Maybe there could be a separate message archive for messages and notices that don't go to the group: rejected messages from group members, rejection notifications, rejected messages from non-group members (I think this one might be better as a group option), invite messages, etc. I would not include spam messages or any other messages rejected by the system (too large, etc.). I have not thought out the details of this, but in keeping with Andy's concerns about bogging down the activity log, a separate message archive for these kinds of things might make sense. As in the regular message archive, each one would be a link that could be clicked on to see the full content.

It would be great to connect these content links to the corresponding activity log entry. So the log entry would read: "xyz rejected message abc [link to rejected message] with reason pqr [link to rejection notice]." Or "xyz sent message abc [link to message] to member pqr." Same with invites and any other content too large to include in the actual activity log. (I still would not include spam messages or any messages bouncing because of size.)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Log rejected messages #suggestion

Andy
 

I just checked and my Activity Log file exceeds 32 Megabytes.  Even the electrons add up.

I like being able to scan down the Log entries.  When I encounter whole messages there, it kind of disrupts that.

Andy


moderated Re: Log rejected messages #suggestion

 

Andy, I have to admit that I, too, find it weird that they’re put into the same activity log with all the one-liners. At one point I debated with myself whether it really matters, and decided it didn’t. I couldn’t really point to a clear downside. It’s not like we’re burning paper.


On Aug 12, 2021, at 7:20 AM, Andy <AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:

We receive sometimes dozens of non-member messages daily.  I would not want them in the Log.  I might accept having them sent to me by email (but I would probably opt-out of receiving them, after the first week or two).

To me, if a message exceeds 2 lines -- no, make that 1 line -- I wouldn't want it in the Log.

Mind you, I am fairly opinionated about this.  I guess you can tell.

Yes, I am objecting to those hard-won Owner messages sent to members.  Clearly you want them.  Clearly, I don't.  IMO, the Log file is not the place to put them.

Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Log rejected messages #suggestion

 

I can see the value in that. I am even more hesitant to go down the slippery slope of more options, but of course, these logging categories could be made group options. My preference would be that some are just picked and everybody gets them.


On Aug 12, 2021, at 7:15 AM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 10:03 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
As I said, I would NOT record any of the cateogories Bruce mentioned, all of which are non-member messages, and that includes spam.
I feel that an +owner message received from someone who never subscribed is nearly as valuable as a rejected message from someone who is. Although I remain hesitant to go down this road, but if we're going to do it I'd like to see that recorded in the log too (and yes, I know it's been suggested before).

Regards,
Bruce

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Log rejected messages #suggestion

Andy
 

We receive sometimes dozens of non-member messages daily.  I would not want them in the Log.  I might accept having them sent to me by email (but I would probably opt-out of receiving them, after the first week or two).

To me, if a message exceeds 2 lines -- no, make that 1 line -- I wouldn't want it in the Log.

Mind you, I am fairly opinionated about this.  I guess you can tell.

Yes, I am objecting to those hard-won Owner messages sent to members.  Clearly you want them.  Clearly, I don't.  IMO, the Log file is not the place to put them.

Andy

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