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moderated Re: "All messages by this member" #bug

 

I tried it and get the same bug. I think my group was also basic at the time the member left (we upgraded shortly after), and it was around the same timeframe you mention. Maybe has to do with maintaining records for "past members" in premium vs. basic groups?
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated "All messages by this member" #bug

Duane
 

I think this is more of a Hmmm thing than important, at the moment anyway.

While trying to find some information this morning, I selected "All messages by this member" below a message.  I got back a list of all group messages.  I then tried the same procedure on other groups which worked properly.  Additional info:
In all cases, the person was no longer a member of the group.
The original search was for a member that left 5 years ago (2016), the others for more recent departures.
All were done on Basic groups created in 2014/15.

Thanks,
Duane


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

Glenn Glazer
 

On 05/29/2021 14:46, Duane wrote:
It's Mark's group (as well as his site), so it's up to him how 'hard' any enforcement should be or is. 

Yes, of course. But he also asked for our thoughts, so I gave mine.

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

Duane
 

On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 03:15 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
I'm fairly agnostic to what the group rules are or will be, but I object to hardline enforcement techniques. 
It's Mark's group (as well as his site), so it's up to him how 'hard' any enforcement should be or is.  I know in the past he has warned some people, then moderated them, then I believe he banned them (but only he knows for sure.)  If he does publish guidelines, we have the choice of accepting them in order to post or of not posting, same as with any group.

Duane


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

Glenn Glazer
 

On 05/29/2021 12:22, Marv Waschke wrote:
In general, this is a well-intentioned and polite group. For me, keeping it that way is guideline number one!

THIS.

I'm fairly agnostic to what the group rules are or will be, but I object to hardline enforcement techniques.  I feel they stifle conversation and actually make things less polite or at least, less respectful of contributors.

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

Marv Waschke
 

I was a development manager for large software projects for many years and I designed and implemented several defect/enhancement tracking systems. Here are my suggestions, which are not original. Some of them have been mentioned before, all are commonplace among development managers.

  • One issue per thread. Don't add new issues to existing threads. Think hard before piling additional features onto others suggestions.
  • Keep in mind three general classes of issue and try to make clear where your issue fits when you post it.
    • Defects. The system is performing contrary to specification, documentation, or reasonable expectation. Remember that what one person sees as a reasonable expectation, another person may see as an enhancement.
    • Design flaws. The system is performing to specification, but the spec is inconsistent or fails to comply with the overall design and intent of the system.
    • Design enhancements. Suggestions for improving the system.
  • Describe the issue in a way that makes it reproducible. Just saying that something is wrong without describing exactly how to make it happen is worse than useless to developers because they waste time guessing how to reproduce the problem, and often end up fixing the wrong issue. Don't report an issue until you have figured out how to make it happen again. When describing enhancements, describe the results you want. Resist the temptation to tell the developer what to do rather than the result you want. Let them figure out how to implement a solution. They know more about the system works than you do, but they don't know how you use it or want to use it.
  • Developers have to decide what to work on next. Help them by explaining how urgent or important the issue is. How often does the issue appear in your group or groups? When it does appear, how disruptive is it in real terms? Not how angry or upset people are, but how are they materially affected? Are all groups subject to the disruption, or does some special characteristic of your group make it vulnerable? If you are upset about an issue, wait until you have calmed down to report. The system has been working for years. The sky won't fall if you wait a day or two.
In general, this is a well-intentioned and polite group. For me, keeping it that way is guideline number one!
Best, Marv


moderated Re: Message can't be sent and can't be deleted #bug

Glenn Glazer
 

On 05/28/2021 19:45, Andy wrote:
On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 10:21 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
This is not what I would recommend except under extreme circumstances, but what you are looking at is a webpage. You could always have your browser "view source" and copy it out of the HTML...

I don't follow what you're saying.  What would I copy from the webpage?  I don't think there is anything to copy.  The contents of the message that is in Drafts is hidden, because groups.io will not open that message for me when I click on it.  Or are you suggesting that the body of the message is actually there, in undisplayed HTML code, even before I click on the message to try to open it?  That seems unlikely.

Which is why it wouldn't be my first recommendation. It might work, it might not.


Regardless, the problem remains that I think this is a Bug.  There ought to be a way for any Groups.io subscriber to retrieve their un-sent message from Drafts (without having to resort to extracting it from hidden HTML code when they haven't even opened the message yet).

Andy

Agreed.

Best,

Glenn


--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: Message can't be sent and can't be deleted #bug

Andy
 

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 10:21 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
This is not what I would recommend except under extreme circumstances, but what you are looking at is a webpage. You could always have your browser "view source" and copy it out of the HTML...

I don't follow what you're saying.  What would I copy from the webpage?  I don't think there is anything to copy.  The contents of the message that is in Drafts is hidden, because groups.io will not open that message for me when I click on it.  Or are you suggesting that the body of the message is actually there, in undisplayed HTML code, even before I click on the message to try to open it?  That seems unlikely.

Regardless, the problem remains that I think this is a Bug.  There ought to be a way for any Groups.io subscriber to retrieve their un-sent message from Drafts (without having to resort to extracting it from hidden HTML code when they haven't even opened the message yet).

Andy


moderated Re: Message can't be sent and can't be deleted #bug

Glenn Glazer
 

On 05/28/2021 19:08, Andy wrote:
I did the only thing I could do --  checked the checkbox, then clicked Discard.  At least that still works.  Nothing else worked.  There was no way for me to open the draft and restore or copy its contents to a new message.

Andy

This is not what I would recommend except under extreme circumstances, but what you are looking at is a webpage. You could always have your browser "view source" and copy it out of the HTML...

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: Message can't be sent and can't be deleted #bug

Andy
 

I did the only thing I could do --  checked the checkbox, then clicked Discard.  At least that still works.  Nothing else worked.  There was no way for me to open the draft and restore or copy its contents to a new message.

Andy


moderated Re: Message can't be sent and can't be deleted #bug

Andy
 

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 07:33 PM, Donald Hellen wrote:
Maybe you can copy and paste from the draft into a new message?

Yes, that is exactly what I want to do.

But as I say, I can't!

Groups.io prevents me from opening the draft.  That's why I am calling this a bug, the fact that the draft can not be opened as a draft anymore.  It's dead.  It is still there, but it is inaccessible.

Andy


moderated Re: Message can't be sent and can't be deleted #bug

Donald Hellen
 

Andy . . .

On Fri, 28 May 2021 14:23:54 -0700, "Andy" <AI.egrps+io@gmail.com>
wrote:

I guess I can probably still discard it from Drafts (didn't try yet), but I wanted to do something with it before blindly deleting it, sight-unseen.
Maybe you can copy and paste from the draft into a new message?


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


moderated Re: Message can't be sent and can't be deleted #bug

Andy
 

Checking the checkbox didn't help.

I think the key thing here is replying to a message that someone else deletes before you get to send your reply.  Then your reply goes into hyperspace.

(Yes, I did see that the message I was replying to, had been deleted -- which is why I said it had been deleted.  And that my reply to it is not in the logs.  My reply is just sitting there in Drafts with no way to open it.)

Andy


moderated Re: Message can't be sent and can't be deleted #bug

 

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 03:10 PM, Andy wrote:
I think what happened is that the sender of the message I was replying to, deleted their message immediately before I sent my reply to it.
That should be easy to check from the activity log.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Message can't be sent and can't be deleted #bug

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 11:10 PM, Andy wrote:
I guess I can probably still discard it from Drafts (didn't try yet)
I tried that on a test group and it worked, but the checkbox needs to be "checked" first. An alternative (another test!) the message can be "opened" and discarded from there.

Caveat; I did not delete the message I was "replying to" first.

Chris


moderated Message can't be sent and can't be deleted #bug

Andy
 

I sent a short message in one of my groups via the web interface.  But I think it did not actually sent.  After clicking "Send", Groups.io immediately brought be to the page that lists all my group subscriptions.

Now, Drafts shows that there is one message in Drafts, which is the one I thought I sent.  But if I click on that message to open it, I get an error, "That message number does not exist."

So, now I have that reply from me, sitting in Drafts, impossible to send, and no way to open it without an error.  Is it just doomed?

I think what happened is that the sender of the message I was replying to, deleted their message immediately before I sent my reply to it.  So now my reply lives in hyperspace with no way to access it.  I guess I can probably still discard it from Drafts (didn't try yet), but I wanted to do something with it before blindly deleting it, sight-unseen.

Andy


moderated Re: Profile photo #bug

Rachel
 

Just heard from a member of our group who had this same issue.
Rachel


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

 

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 11:03 AM, KWKloeber wrote:
unsure how to succinct it into a guideline
"If you make a suggestion, please motivate the suggestion: include the reason why it would be useful and/or the problem it solves; any use cases you know exist, or that may exist; and current workarounds you are aware of and why you think they are insufficient or could stand improvement."
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

KWKloeber
 

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 11:09 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
You can just do [xyz inconvenient workaround].
Toward cutting off such replies before they occur, it might be helpful if the original #suggester was as complete as humanly possible in the original po,t  i.e., *I realize we can work around this by... but the downside is....* or whatever.  There's no way to know if the #suggester is even aware there's a workaround, so oftentimes we ass/u/me s/he doesn't know. -- #suggesters,  put yourself in your recipients' shoes.
  
It may also be helpful to succinctly explain why a #suggestion is made.  Just posting *I #suggest xyz* gives MF no clue as to the utility of doing that, or what the problem is leaving it where is it.  *Here's why #suggestion would be better ....* gives everyone involved more information.
We might think we shouldn't need to explain our "whys and wherefores" but in the long game it can make life easier.  We aren't making suggestions to only MF (otherwise this group isn't needed -- it could be via email,) we're doing it for discussion.  i.e., if we don't need *some point* discussed then it's critical to provide enough information to demonstrate that *the point* doesn't NEED to be discussed - i.e., that the #suggester has already considered it.

just 0.02, unsure how to succinct it into a guideline.


moderated Re: Beta Group Guidelines #meta

 

Ok, so one more message from me in this topic, given Mark's request:

Mark, I like your previously mentioned exhortations not to shoot down ideas without an affirmative reason that they are bad or might actually hurt something or be bad for the product. What gets my goat are messages that say, "Why do we really need this? You can just do [xyz inconvenient workaround]." There are almost always workarounds. Heck, there's a workaround to groups.io! Why do we need it? Just create your own email list!

The answer to those kinds of comments is always the same: "Yes, there's a workaround, but we are just trying to make things better, make mods' and members' lives easier than having to do the workaround, and the suggestion doesn't hurt anything." It's like rinse-and-repeat.

I think arguments against a suggestion are fine if they describe why they could actually have a negative effect.

And I have one more pet-peeve subservient to this: "I'm not arguing against this" followed by the above ("but we don't really need it" yada yada).
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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