Date   

locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

 

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 06:41 AM, Lynne wrote:
hard time understanding why the proposed suggestion is better than the tools we already have
It's not necessary to understand why. If something gets suggested here, Mark has stated many times not to argue against it. It's his decision. And if it gets implemented and you don't need it, don't use it. It's pretty clear that one way or the other - whether it's per group or per topic - it's going to be optional. So nothing to stress out abouit or argue against. But for argument's sake, several people here, including me have mentioned that moderating, announcing, and then locking is inconvenient.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

Lynne
 

I'm having a hard time understanding why the proposed suggestion is better than the tools we already have.  Putting the topic on moderation, sending  a message to the group that the topic is locked (and why), approving my admin message, and then locking the topic seems easy enough.

Lynne


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

 

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 05:30 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
doing so does not guarantee
Ah, here we go again! No, it does not guarantee anything. But it will help. (And it won't cure cancer, either. :)

would it not be better to Moderate Topic
Sometimes, you need - or, hey! even just want - to lock a topic.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

 

It needs to be a post to the group. Most people have their notifications off, especially the people most likely to use email, which is where the problem lies. 


On May 25, 2021, at 5:25 AM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

I'm still not clear on whether this would be implemented as a member notification or an actual post to the group. The former may be more desirable so that individual members can opt out of receiving them.

There are a number of group and hashtag settings that automatically lock topics. Generating a proliferation of notifications/messages due to this could be undesirable. Anything sent should be in response to the manual locking of a topic by a Moderator. For this reason a checkbox option in some kind of new Lock Topic dialog makes sense to me.

I'll let others hash out any further details of this feature.

Regards,
Bruce

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 03:52 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
The use case is that we locked a thread that was getting contentious and someone had composed a long and thoughtful response only to find their effort had been wasted. If they had known of the lock a priori, they wouldn't have invested the time in the response.
I am not going to argue against your suggestion of an optional notification that a topic has been locked, but I will point out that doing so does not guarantee that no - one will find out just too late that a topic to which they were composing a message has been locked.

In the cited case of a topic that was becoming contentious would it not be better to Moderate Topic from the More menu? That provides a means of stopping contentious posts appearing without stopping the acceptable ones. It also requires no change to existing group capabilities.

Chris


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

I'm still not clear on whether this would be implemented as a member notification or an actual post to the group. The former may be more desirable so that individual members can opt out of receiving them.

There are a number of group and hashtag settings that automatically lock topics. Generating a proliferation of notifications/messages due to this could be undesirable. Anything sent should be in response to the manual locking of a topic by a Moderator. For this reason a checkbox option in some kind of new Lock Topic dialog makes sense to me.

I'll let others hash out any further details of this feature.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Apostrophes in event names being translated on calendar messages and moderator notifications #bug #fixed

Andy Wedge
 

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 06:40 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
This should be fixed now.
Hi Mark,

I'm still seeing the bug in browser notifications:



Regards
Andy


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 12:23 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Just because it doesn't match your particular preferences or use cases doesn't invalidate the preferences and use cases of others.
I didn't say it did. It was your original post that mentioned automatically doing this. If there's any option to do this, it should be opt-in not opt-out.

Andy


moderated Re: Unknown bounce issue #bug

Derek Milliner
 

Alexis,

I made a broad and possibly invalid assumption that your incoming mail is handled by your own mail server (e.g. postfix, sendmail etc.) and that how your script is called by the mail server. If this is not the case then my references to the SMTP dialogue don't apply. If it is your own mail server, then the key debug info will be in the mail server logs.

If you haven't already done so I'd add a debug line in your script that simply writes to a local file when it's called just in case there's something in the message which also causes the copy to you to fail. Belt 'n' braces.

If the message isn't even getting as far as calling your script and it's not your own mail server then you'd need to work with the provider to get log details on what's happening with that specific source. It may be of course that they changed something about 6 months ago. Mark may be able to use the info you've provided to shed a little more light from the GIO end.


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

Donald Hellen
 

Andy . . .

On Mon, 24 May 2021 15:22:37 -0700, "Andy Wedge"
<andy_wedge@linetwo.co.uk> wrote:

I don't see a good reason for this either and the last thing I want is unnecessary messages going to members just to tell them that a topic is locked. I would object to any automatic sending of messages for this purpose and if there's an option when locking a topic, I certainly wouldn't use it and would not want it set by default.
Agreed, and I don't think anyone was thinking it should be a default
option.

Not sure how automatic locking of topics after a set period of time
goes by would be handled if a group wanted those announced also but
depending on how Mark would set this up, it could be an opt-in (not
default) option for automatically locked topics.

However, the original idea being discussed is about when a topic is
manually locked and how it can optionally send an announcement that
the topic is locked with a manual choice to do so made by the
moderator, or a setting to do so automatically but not by default (by
opt-in only). To make it default by nature would no doubt upset things
in many existing groups.

If it's desirable by some to also send an announcement when an
auto-locked topic, say after a few months (like someone here has their
groups set up to do), is locked, perhaps that could also be an option,
not set by default.

Most of us who are interested in this are just looking for some manual
way to send an announcement of the lock, and how that is done is not
as important as the ability to do it. The details can be worked out
before implementation on how the best way to do it might be.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


moderated Re: Non Daily Digests #bug

Tommy Meehan
 

Thanks Mark, I appreciate the response. It seemed like something had changed, just wasn't sure what. This morning I did not get a digest to my owner's account (Gmail) but I did receive one in my member's account (AOL).

tommy meehan


moderated Re: Unknown bounce issue #bug

Alexis
 

sorry, affected email should read:
sbslists1@antonakis.co.uk

On 24/05/2021 16:51, Alexis wrote:
Hi Mark,
that is the only reason given
The group is
https://mode-s.groups.io/g/mode-s-logs
or specifically it is a sub group of
https://mode-s.groups.io/g/mode-s
the email address of the account that keeps bouncing is:
sbs1@antonakis.co.uk
The ONLY message that causes this problem is from:
Tony Scott Warren
and the emails all have the subject line of :
PlanePlotter Log from Howden, East Yorkshire 23/05/2021
(Where the date changes)
There are also messages produced by the same piece of software which do not bounce, and a couple of examples are those with subject lines starting with:
PlanePlotter Log from East Devon
&
PlanePlotter Log from Macapá, AP - Brazil
I cannot remember exactly when the bouncing issue started, but it was about 6 months ago, for the 1-2 years we have been using your service prior to that, everything was just fine.
If you need any more info please just ask as this really is frustrating me.
Cheers
Alexis
On 24/05/2021 11:07, Mark Fletcher wrote:
On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 9:07 AM Alexis <yahoo@antonakis.co.uk> wrote:

Hi,

For about 6 months now I have been having an extremely annoying issue with
messages being bounced from one individual

The reason given is:

<!--

That is it!

I need more information in order to investigate this. Is this the reason
given in the Email Delivery History for this individual? What is their
email address? And what is the name of the group.

Thanks,
Mark






locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

Glenn Glazer
 

On 05/24/2021 15:22, Andy Wedge wrote:
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 11:00 PM, Andy wrote:
I think it is more correct to say that everyone who is passionate about this idea thinks it is a good one.

Personally, I don't see a good reason for this.
I don't see a good reason for this either and the last thing I want is unnecessary messages going to members just to tell them that a topic is locked.  I would object to any automatic sending of messages for this purpose and if there's an option when locking a topic, I certainly wouldn't use it and would not want it set by default.

Andy

Then don't turn this option on. Just because it doesn't match your particular preferences or use cases doesn't invalidate the preferences and use cases of others.

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

 

Thinking a bit about this, the "both" option can work but it depends on how the group setting is structured.  If you segregate the member notifications to manual vs automatic and arrange the two options as such, it will work, i.e. that group notify is a child to the Auto-Lock (see below).  If it is a top-level option it would be impractical, as if you wanted to lock a topic you'd have to go to MessagePolicies first to turn notification ON (if you had it to OFF so as not to notify when topics are auto-locked), lock the topic).  

Which means, when locking a topic manually, a confirmation dialog would be required but it would be many clicks less than the above case.

IMO, the attached can work quite flexibly for having both per group (auto) and per topic (manual) locking member notifications:

A: If you want to notify the members when topics are automatically locked by the system due to duration (message- or hashtag-induced) set the group auto-notify ON, otherwise nothing changes/no impact on anyone, because the default is OFF.
B: If you want to notify the members when you manually locks a topic, use the Topic-notify checkbox when locking that topic, which is independent of the group setting.

This gives you the best of both worlds.  But if I had to chose between the two, I'd personally also take the manual/per topic locking with the confirmation. 
 
Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Unknown bounce issue #bug

Alexis
 

Thanks for the info Derek,

I am confused when you say "it is breaking the SMTP connection without sending any message back"

Emails are sent to a recipient without any form of response being required, so unless I have misunderstood what you have said, this makes no sense to me.

As for the possible reasons you have given, very helpful.

The thing is, the script works just fine for all other messages it receives, including messages produced by the same piece of software that the offending 'sender' uses, which in my mind would negate all of those reasons, would it not?

Sorry I have not explained things clearly.

In my group, aircraft logs are posted using a variety of different software.

One of the members of that group is an email address that I have 'attached' a script to. A script, that when it receives any emails, it extracts the data contained and puts it into a database.

No message is automatically sent back, although a sender does have the option to receive one if they so wish. In this case they do not wish it.

I have put some error trapping into my script, by sending myself a copy of the message as soon as it receives it. I receive copies of all messages sent, EXCEPT the one that bounces, which in my mind implies that the message is not being received by my mail server, which makes sense if that message is bouncing.

Hope that clears things up and sorry for the confusion

Alexis

On 23/05/2021 11:55, Derek Milliner wrote:
Alexis,
First instinct is that the recipient machine running the script is throwing an error and breaking the SMTP connection without sending any message back to the sender; this might explain why the only entry in the 'Reason' is that HTML comment ((<!-- ). Various reasons for this, including:
* Mail handler doesn't have permission to run the script
* Mail handler doesn't have permission to read the script
* Component required to run the script isn't present, is broken or has incorrect permissions/privileges (possibly due to being updated)
* Non-printing character embedded in script, often due to cut & paste between dissimilar OSes (e.g. Windows -> Linux) causing a syntax error
There may be others of course, but without knowing the setup it's speculation right now. I presume from the way you describe the process that you have a script that generates a message which is posted to the group, the message then being delivered to members and processed by the second script. It's highly unlikely to be a problem at the Groups.io send given that only this one account has the issue.
I would try manually connecting to the recipient's mail server and emulating the delivery process with SMTP commands (EHLO, RCPT TO, MAIL FROM, DATA etc.); this would at least indicate whether it's possible to make a successful delivery (get an SMTP '250' code back). If you have a sample message it can be pasted in after the DATA command to try & generate an expected reply.
If the manual process doesn't work either, then it's a question of the user checking their system & logs to try and nail down the cause of the problem.


moderated Re: Unknown bounce issue #bug

Alexis
 

Hi Mark,

that is the only reason given

The group is
https://mode-s.groups.io/g/mode-s-logs

or specifically it is a sub group of
https://mode-s.groups.io/g/mode-s

the email address of the account that keeps bouncing is:
sbs1@antonakis.co.uk


The ONLY message that causes this problem is from:
Tony Scott Warren

and the emails all have the subject line of :
PlanePlotter Log from Howden, East Yorkshire 23/05/2021
(Where the date changes)

There are also messages produced by the same piece of software which do not bounce, and a couple of examples are those with subject lines starting with:
PlanePlotter Log from East Devon
&
PlanePlotter Log from Macapá, AP - Brazil

I cannot remember exactly when the bouncing issue started, but it was about 6 months ago, for the 1-2 years we have been using your service prior to that, everything was just fine.

If you need any more info please just ask as this really is frustrating me.

Cheers
Alexis

On 24/05/2021 11:07, Mark Fletcher wrote:
On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 9:07 AM Alexis <yahoo@antonakis.co.uk> wrote:

Hi,

For about 6 months now I have been having an extremely annoying issue with
messages being bounced from one individual

The reason given is:

<!--

That is it!

I need more information in order to investigate this. Is this the reason
given in the Email Delivery History for this individual? What is their
email address? And what is the name of the group.
Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 11:00 PM, Andy wrote:
I think it is more correct to say that everyone who is passionate about this idea thinks it is a good one.

Personally, I don't see a good reason for this.
I don't see a good reason for this either and the last thing I want is unnecessary messages going to members just to tell them that a topic is locked.  I would object to any automatic sending of messages for this purpose and if there's an option when locking a topic, I certainly wouldn't use it and would not want it set by default.

Andy


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

Andy
 


It seems to me that everyone agrees that the general idea is a good one. ...
I think it is more correct to say that everyone who is passionate about this idea thinks it is a good one.

Personally, I don't see a good reason for this.  But I understand what you're all saying about it.

Andy


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

Glenn Glazer
 

It seems to me that everyone agrees that the general idea is a good one. Perhaps we should leave the bikeshedding to Mark.

Best,

Glenn

--
#calcare
PG&E Delenda Est


locked Re: announce on topic lock #suggestion

Donald Hellen
 

On Mon, 24 May 2021 11:21:12 -0700, "J_Catlady"
<j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't care about the additional confirmation and think it just slows things down. We don't have it now and we don't really need it. You could simply add the "notify members" box. No group setting or option.
I don't see a need for confirmation since the moderator is taking
deliberate action to lock the topic and if the option exists to notify
the group and the mod wants to do that, it would also be taking
deliberate action to do that.

Adding confirmations just adds to the complexity of the operation. If
you don't want to lock the topic, don't start the process. If you
don't want to announce the locking, don't tick the box or click the
button (or whatever would be there to enable that option).

If you made a mistake in locking the topic, it can be undone. If you
did so and announced it, then had second thoughts, you could undo it
and send another announcement.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main

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