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moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

Duane
 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 12:15 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
At first blush, Bruce's proposal makes sense to me, although I'd just add one change: just make the Vote Now link work the same way as an 'email me a login link' works now. It would automatically log you in if you weren't already logged in.
A couple of situations I can see offhand.  One is the forwarding that's already been mentioned.  To minimize that problem, the 'login' could be a one-shot with no cookie set, but could still be misused at times.  That could create a secondary complication though where someone decides to change their vote.  Maybe in that case they'd need to contact the owner/mod and request a new 'vote link' (a one-shot sent by the owner/mod)?  This situation is related to the suggestion at https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/29461, though there was never any discussion on it so I don't think it was presented on beta.

Duane


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

Glenn Glazer
 

On 01/18/2021 11:21, Bruce Bowman wrote:
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 01:59 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Help me out here, because I'm not sure how your recommendation solves the problem you state. Let's say there are separate links in the email as you recommend. Let us then say I forward my email to Joe. Joe clicks the link and votes without logging in. That's the same result as in Mark's recommendation.
Yes, this person clicking on a vote in a forwarded message has cast a proxy vote in your name, which is bad (and which I already mentioned here).

But it's not nearly as bad as having him remain logged in, so that he could subsequently change your subscription options, unsubscribe you from groups, post spam, or any other number of nasty things -- with your name attached to it.

Regards,
Bruce

Aha, gotcha. Yes, continued impersonation of the authorization would be bad.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 01:59 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Help me out here, because I'm not sure how your recommendation solves the problem you state. Let's say there are separate links in the email as you recommend. Let us then say I forward my email to Joe. Joe clicks the link and votes without logging in. That's the same result as in Mark's recommendation.
Yes, this person clicking on a vote in a forwarded message has cast a proxy vote in your name, which is bad (and which I already mentioned here).

But it's not nearly as bad as having him remain logged in, so that he could subsequently change your subscription options, unsubscribe you from groups, post spam, or any other number of nasty things -- with your name attached to it.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

Glenn Glazer
 

On 01/18/2021 10:45, Bruce Bowman wrote:
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 01:15 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
At first blush, Bruce's proposal makes sense to me, although I'd just add one change: just make the Vote Now link work the same way as an 'email me a login link' works now. It would automatically log you in if you weren't already logged in.
Mark -- On first sight, I kinda like this, except for the potential for forwarding, and accidentally granting someone else access to your account. Having specifically requested a link to log in, folks are unlikely to forward that email...this is not necessarily true with an ordinary group email, especially if the poll is mixed up with other messages in a digest.

With these things considered I'd still prefer that we provide separate links for each poll response and record the vote that arrives via clicking each link without logging anyone in.

Regards,
Bruce

Bruce,

Help me out here, because I'm not sure how your recommendation solves the problem you state. Let's say there are separate links in the email as you recommend. Let us then say I forward my email to Joe. Joe clicks the link and votes without logging in. That's the same result as in Mark's recommendation.

All that said, as yet another owner of 99% email groups, I strongly approve of this proposal, however it eventually takes shape.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 01:15 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
At first blush, Bruce's proposal makes sense to me, although I'd just add one change: just make the Vote Now link work the same way as an 'email me a login link' works now. It would automatically log you in if you weren't already logged in.
Mark -- On first sight, I kinda like this, except for the potential for forwarding, and accidentally granting someone else access to your account. Having specifically requested a link to log in, folks are unlikely to forward that email...this is not necessarily true with an ordinary group email, especially if the poll is mixed up with other messages in a digest.

With these things considered I'd still prefer that we provide separate links for each poll response and record the vote that arrives via clicking each link without logging anyone in.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

David Grimm
 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 12:19 PM, Tom U wrote:
That's exactly what I do want to do.  At least for the majority of members.   I hope that the additional pro services would be of benefit to the managers but if the only way to make use of them is to get 100 kayakers to learn about groups.io features, well, not going to work for this group.

OK, I'm a little testy about being told how I should be using the service.  There is a way that I want to use the service.  I hope that I have explained my reasons for my use case.  
So perhaps Groups.io isn't for you or your group. It was explained to you why the feature you requested doesn't exist the way you envision it, and maybe it was a little blunt, but so is asking for a change to the system to conform to what YOU think it ought to be. 

Dave


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

Starchild <sfdreamer@...>
 


Tom,

From this user's perspective, what you wrote is spot-on, and pretty well describes where the groups I manage stand as well. The attractiveness of Groups.io for a lot of people is that it offers email lists that you can use without having to deal with a whole new interface like Slack or something. 

While bells and whistles can be nice in some cases, email is reliable, inclusive, and user-empowering, because almost everyone has an email address and knows how to use it and you are less reliant on any one company (lots of options to obtain free or paid email addresses, archive messages on your own device without going through a particular platform). 

Our members generally don't seem to want yet more accounts, or care enough about special features to deal with the learning curves, and I am wary of fancier platforms when they could be suddenly pulled out from under us, as the recent wave of censorship by big tech companies illustrates (whether or not you agree with their actions at this particular political moment).

Love & Liberty,

((( starchild )))
 


On Jan 18, 2021, at 7:53 AM, Tom U wrote:
Sorry, but you are way off beam here. Every member of a group (hosted by Groups.io, that is!) has an Account, even if they don't realise it.
No I'm not.  I may have not read the user manual (thanks for the link) and may not understand the subtlies of how groups.io tracks users, but I do have a valid point about our user's experience.  Calling me "way off beam" is discouraging of my future engagement.

I'm using groups.io to facilitate communication in a community of kayakers in a local outdoor club.  I considered options such as slack and basecamp but most of our members are resistant to adopting new technology.  Also, communication is infrequent enough that they won't come to some web site and check for it.  Communication must come to them.  I choose an e-mail list because everyone uses e-mail, they can control how they receive communication, and they don't need to "create an account"

For the purpose of this post, "create an account" is used to mean the common understanding:  Submit a user name and password which I then use to access the services.  I wanted to not require everyone to create an account on yet another service.

So far, so good.  I over 100 people have joined our mailing list.  The free version did most of what we wanted but I argued that we should pay for service and that would make the manager's life easy.  A few people have created accounts and are figuring out what paid serves gets us.  However most of our members are just on a mailing list.

I'm not convinced that the paid service is providing much value for us.  I sugged that we try using some of the features, such as pools.  

 * We created a poll
 * I noticed I had to log in
 * I asked others if they didn't participate in the poll because they didn't have an account
 * many said that was their experience.
 * I conclude that polls, as implemented, are not useful to us.

> At the risk of repeating myself, ALL your members already have accounts; all they need to do is complete the process of setting them up to enable web access. 

Perhaps, technically, but they don't know that, they have not set a password, they don't want yet-another-account, and I'm not going to tell them to, besides, most would not bother.

Having non - account holders to vote means risking non - members voting, and that would be a HUGE mistake.

That's what I want, I'm willing to take that risk.  Calling this a HUGE mistake is a HUGE misunderstanding of my needs and risk assessment.

> IMHO treating Groups.io purely as a mailing list is also a mistake, but that's another story...

That's exactly what I do want to do.  At least for the majority of members.   I hope that the additional pro services would be of benefit to the managers but if the only way to make use of them is to get 100 kayakers to learn about groups.io features, well, not going to work for this group.

OK, I'm a little testy about being told how I should be using the service.  There is a way that I want to use the service.  I hope that I have explained my reasons for my use case.  

Tom


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

Peter Cook
 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 12:51 PM, Chris Jones wrote:
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 05:19 PM, Tom U wrote:
Calling me "way off beam" is discouraging of my future engagement.
I said that because of your assertion that your members did not have accounts when in fact they do. 
The same value to the group, minus the negativity, could have been delivered with "That's not correct, Tom. Every member of a group (hosted by Groups.io, that is!) has an Account, even if they don't realise it." 

Honestly, I cringe when I see this kind of language. It's completely unnecessary.

Pete


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 9:51 AM Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 05:19 PM, Tom U wrote:
Calling me "way off beam" is discouraging of my future engagement.
I said that because of your assertion that your members did not have accounts when in fact they do. 


Tom's users don't think they have Groups.io accounts. Whether they technically do or not is not their problem nor concern. They want to participate in a poll, and are having trouble doing so. That's the problem. How best to help them should be the focus.

At first blush, Bruce's proposal makes sense to me, although I'd just add one change: just make the Vote Now link work the same way as an 'email me a login link' works now. It would automatically log you in if you weren't already logged in.


Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 05:19 PM, Tom U wrote:
Calling me "way off beam" is discouraging of my future engagement.
I said that because of your assertion that your members did not have accounts when in fact they do. 

Further on you wrote: Perhaps, technically, but they don't know that, they have not set a password, they don't want yet-another-account, and I'm not going to tell them to, besides, most would not bother.

Perhaps I am getting old and tetchy but I now have to ask if your members have also avoided setting up accounts with Amazon, ebay, and so on. I find myself rather saddened that people should see setting up an Account with Groups.io as in some way too much trouble. Are they not prepared to put in a little effort so that they can get the best out of Groups.io?

"Saddened" might be better replaced with a slightly stronger feeling but I'll leave it as it is.

Chris


moderated Make mouse pointer consistent on +New button in Files section #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

Hi Mark,

On Groups.io the mouse pointer arrow changes to a hand pointer except when selecting options from the +New button in the Files section. Can we standardise please?

Thanks
Andy


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

Duane
 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 11:19 AM, Tom U wrote:
A few people have created accounts and are figuring out what paid serves gets us.
You may want to direct the reluctant members to https://groups.io/helpcenter/membersmanual/1/understanding-groups-io-accounts/logging-in-to-your-account, especially the part about logging in without a password.  You could also remind them that as long as they visit the site at least once every 30 days (and don't delete cookies), they won't need to log in the next time on that device.  If they do need to log in, they can repeat the process for another 30 days.  I've had some 'email only' members use this and found it so easy that they visit the site on a regular basis now.  Some have even read the Members Manual and learned all sorts of neat things! ;>)

Duane


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

Tom U
 

Sorry, but you are way off beam here. Every member of a group (hosted by Groups.io, that is!) has an Account, even if they don't realise it.
No I'm not.  I may have not read the user manual (thanks for the link) and may not understand the subtlies of how groups.io tracks users, but I do have a valid point about our user's experience.  Calling me "way off beam" is discouraging of my future engagement.

I'm using groups.io to facilitate communication in a community of kayakers in a local outdoor club.  I considered options such as slack and basecamp but most of our members are resistant to adopting new technology.  Also, communication is infrequent enough that they won't come to some web site and check for it.  Communication must come to them.  I choose an e-mail list because everyone uses e-mail, they can control how they receive communication, and they don't need to "create an account"

For the purpose of this post, "create an account" is used to mean the common understanding:  Submit a user name and password which I then use to access the services.  I wanted to not require everyone to create an account on yet another service.

So far, so good.  I over 100 people have joined our mailing list.  The free version did most of what we wanted but I argued that we should pay for service and that would make the manager's life easy.  A few people have created accounts and are figuring out what paid serves gets us.  However most of our members are just on a mailing list.

I'm not convinced that the paid service is providing much value for us.  I sugged that we try using some of the features, such as pools.  

 * We created a poll
 * I noticed I had to log in
 * I asked others if they didn't participate in the poll because they didn't have an account
 * many said that was their experience.
 * I conclude that polls, as implemented, are not useful to us.

> At the risk of repeating myself, ALL your members already have accounts; all they need to do is complete the process of setting them up to enable web access. 

Perhaps, technically, but they don't know that, they have not set a password, they don't want yet-another-account, and I'm not going to tell them to, besides, most would not bother.

Having non - account holders to vote means risking non - members voting, and that would be a HUGE mistake.

That's what I want, I'm willing to take that risk.  Calling this a HUGE mistake is a HUGE misunderstanding of my needs and risk assessment.

> IMHO treating Groups.io purely as a mailing list is also a mistake, but that's another story...

That's exactly what I do want to do.  At least for the majority of members.   I hope that the additional pro services would be of benefit to the managers but if the only way to make use of them is to get 100 kayakers to learn about groups.io features, well, not going to work for this group.

OK, I'm a little testy about being told how I should be using the service.  There is a way that I want to use the service.  I hope that I have explained my reasons for my use case.  

Tom


moderated Re: Subject line of messages in Activity section #bug

Andy Wedge
 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 04:22 PM, debbie wrote:
I was talking about messages that do have subject lines. BUT, if you have one without a subject line it's still going to have the quotes for the empty subject, like this - sent message "" to owners via email - and you can click on the quotes to see the message.
Yes, I can see that too. This is what I was referring to after selecting the name/email address link on the Activity log:



Andy


moderated Re: Poll participation by non-account holders #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 11:35 PM, Tom U wrote:
We would like to be able to poll them, but if responding to a poll requires creating an account, that is not going to happen.  So, polls, not so useful for our community.
Tom -- As others have stated, all of your subscribers already have an account, so that's probably not the problem. The problem is that they must log in, re-find the poll after doing so, and generally figure out how to navigate the site and use the menu system.

A substantial fraction of my members (more than 75%) never log in, and when they click the link, are befuddled to be presented with a login screen. Such folks either give up entirely, or simply reply to the #poll-notice via email; which as we all know, creates its own problems. On that basis I agree that it would be nice if a subscriber could simply click on a provided link to give their poll response without having to jump through all those hoops.

How to do that? Well, you could provide a separate link for each poll response (as opposed to the generic "vote now"). The link would code which subscriber responded and what that response was (via a query string or something like that), and automatically record that vote in the poll.

Downsides:
-- Not sure how this proposal might function in light of the "allow multiple choices" flag.
-- Members who indiscriminately forward group emails could inadvertently create a "proxy voting" situation.

Back to the original proposal:  Allowing non-account holders to do this? Nope, I can't agree with that. At a minimum, voting needs to be restricted to those who have received the poll email, and are still subscribed at the time they click a button.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Subject line of messages in Activity section #bug

debbie
 



On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 6:10 PM Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 03:14 PM, debbie wrote:
I noticed over a week ago that when I hit reply to the message, the subject line is blank, not showing the subject that the member sent the message
Messages with a blank subject link show up on the +owner messages list but as there is no subject, there is no link to click on to open them. I'm not sure what was there before in this case but I would say it's a bug at the moment.

Andy

I was talking about messages that do have subject lines. BUT, if you have one without a subject line it's still going to have the quotes for the empty subject, like this - sent message "" to owners via email - and you can click on the quotes to see the message.


moderated Re: Subject line of messages in Activity section #bug

Andy Wedge
 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 03:14 PM, debbie wrote:
I noticed over a week ago that when I hit reply to the message, the subject line is blank, not showing the subject that the member sent the message
Messages with a blank subject link show up on the +owner messages list but as there is no subject, there is no link to click on to open them. I'm not sure what was there before in this case but I would say it's a bug at the moment.

Andy


moderated Re: Subject line of messages in Activity section #bug

 

Yep, I rechecked and was just logging back in to post again. You're right. It's blank.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Subject line of messages in Activity section #bug

debbie
 



On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 5:52 PM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 07:14 AM, debbie wrote:
I noticed over a week ago that when I hit reply to the message, the subject line is blank, not showing the subject that the member sent the message with.
I can't reproduce this. It's working fine for me.


I checked in two different groups with Firefox and Chrome and it's not working for me.


moderated Re: Subject line of messages in Activity section #bug

 

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 07:14 AM, debbie wrote:
I noticed over a week ago that when I hit reply to the message, the subject line is blank, not showing the subject that the member sent the message with.
I can't reproduce this. It's working fine for me.

It would be nice if when someone sends a message to the owner address, the system would reject the message without a subject line
I think that would be unacceptable. People need to be able to freely send messages to the owner. It's their way of trying to communicate, sometimes by people already having technical issues.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I am right.

My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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