Date   

moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

I keep getting drawn back in, so I’ll just say it one last time and then mute this topic so I’m not tempted: my feeling is that any structure wherein members pay instead of just owners violates the promised grandfathering because it affects virtually everything, is messy and complicated in nearly any form, changes the whole model of what we are doing here, and (as someone else mentioned) creates weird inequities. That’s it, that’s my own personal position, it may not be other people’s, and I won’t respond to comments contradicting it. I have to say that least this thread provided a welcome diversion from the rest of what’s going on.


On Jan 10, 2021, at 12:09 AM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Yes, I understand that. Again, not what I’m talking about.


On Jan 9, 2021, at 11:35 PM, Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:


On 2021-01-09 22:38, J_Catlady via groups.io wrote:
Nobody was promised that those things would be grandfathered, either.
 

You mean, grandfathered forever and ever? 

If yes, Mark's message promises (to me at least) that, as has been customary so far, groups created before this necessary (Jan-2021) plan change will stay legacy "forever" [or at the very least until there is the absolute need for change due to a sustainability or emergency situation]; an explicit promise in other words that grandfathered/legacy groups will stay as such as for as long as he can help it.  (Mark please correct me if I understood/extrapolated wrong)

To me that is as good as grandfathered forever.io can get; it's the same promise we have gotten every time so far there has been something grandfathered, and so far it has been forever, hopefully it will stay like that forever.  It would be nice but it's unreasonable to expect Mark to promise forever-and-ever; if one thinks about it, grandfathering things is a perk to us from Mark, done at his discretion because it's affordable/sustainable, so far.  Things can change with no control over them.

Cheers,
Christos



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

Yes, I understand that. Again, not what I’m talking about.


On Jan 9, 2021, at 11:35 PM, Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:


On 2021-01-09 22:38, J_Catlady via groups.io wrote:
Nobody was promised that those things would be grandfathered, either.
 

You mean, grandfathered forever and ever? 

If yes, Mark's message promises (to me at least) that, as has been customary so far, groups created before this necessary (Jan-2021) plan change will stay legacy "forever" [or at the very least until there is the absolute need for change due to a sustainability or emergency situation]; an explicit promise in other words that grandfathered/legacy groups will stay as such as for as long as he can help it.  (Mark please correct me if I understood/extrapolated wrong)

To me that is as good as grandfathered forever.io can get; it's the same promise we have gotten every time so far there has been something grandfathered, and so far it has been forever, hopefully it will stay like that forever.  It would be nice but it's unreasonable to expect Mark to promise forever-and-ever; if one thinks about it, grandfathering things is a perk to us from Mark, done at his discretion because it's affordable/sustainable, so far.  Things can change with no control over them.

Cheers,
Christos



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 


On 2021-01-09 22:38, J_Catlady via groups.io wrote:
Nobody was promised that those things would be grandfathered, either.
 

You mean, grandfathered forever and ever? 

If yes, Mark's message promises (to me at least) that, as has been customary so far, groups created before this necessary (Jan-2021) plan change will stay legacy "forever" [or at the very least until there is the absolute need for change due to a sustainability or emergency situation]; an explicit promise in other words that grandfathered/legacy groups will stay as such as for as long as he can help it.  (Mark please correct me if I understood/extrapolated wrong)

To me that is as good as grandfathered forever.io can get; it's the same promise we have gotten every time so far there has been something grandfathered, and so far it has been forever, hopefully it will stay like that forever.  It would be nice but it's unreasonable to expect Mark to promise forever-and-ever; if one thinks about it, grandfathering things is a perk to us from Mark, done at his discretion because it's affordable/sustainable, so far.  Things can change with no control over them.

Cheers,
Christos



moderated Re: Database buttons #suggestion

Nancy Funk <funkmomma71@...>
 

My group deals with loads of databases, by this I mean have to deal with loads of databases. I would LOVE to have the buttons at the top. Deleting a database is onerous, especially when I have several dozen to do at once, like when we are getting ready for our next semester of classes and I need to delete all the previous databases. Eliminating the scrolling would be helpful. I just now learned about the shortcut to get to the bottom of my screen, how many others aren't aware of this? 


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 07:31 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:
Not to argue,
Haha! :-)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 07:31 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:
nobody who created a groups.io account thought that at some point in time in the future their new free groups would have no Files/Photo/etc capabilities anymore;
Nobody was promised that those things would be grandfathered, either.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 07:12 PM, Christos G. Psarras wrote:
or prunes membership, which itself can result in unintended removals making (other) members "payforit" indirectly.
That's right. It affects everybody, the whole works.

Samuel's idea piggybacks on (1) and adds an extra payment feature ,,, Group.io users can now themselves purchase an optional Groups.io sitewide account
Exactly. A big mess. Whereas simply changing the fee structure for owners is invisible to other users. It doesn't have to be Mark's original plan. Maybe that's too expensive, maybe the membership limits need adjusting, maybe not, whatever. But it doesn't turn everything upside down, it's invisible to users, and it's cleaner (no worrying about refunds after a member is kicked out, no worrying about the sequence and flow of confirmation/payment/group acceptance, and probably a dozen other complications).
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 


That is still my interpretation. (Even if a group itself is grandfathered in, members may have to start paying to join other groups. Nobody who created a groups.io account thought that was going to happen.)

Not to argue, yes but then again, nobody who created a groups.io account thought that at some point in time in the future their new free groups would have no Files/Photo/etc capabilities anymore; I think you may be taking the concept a bit too far, I don't know.

Cheers,
Christos



moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 06:33 PM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
If “the rules” change for group OWNERS, obviously those changes apply to their subscribers.
Disagree. If owner fees change, that is transparent to subscribers.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

>>> Making members pay is a dealbreaker for me.
>>> It seems like a member-pay model affects every member, and therefore, affects all groups, even if indirectly.

I think I now get what you mean, so if I interpret things correctly:

(1)  A plan (Jan-2021 or similar) which caps the number of (free) users in a group, and requires payment from the group owner for more membership capacity, is technically "making [Groups.io] members pay", because when the new non-legacy group now uses up their free capacity, no new members can join the group unless the group owner either pays for a free membership capacity increase, for a group upgrade, or prunes membership, which itself can result in unintended removals making (other) members "payforit" indirectly.

(2)  Samuel's idea piggybacks on (1) and adds an extra payment feature; instead of only the owner having to pay in order to increase capacity (which would still be an option), Group.io users can now themselves purchase an optional Groups.io sitewide account upgrade (VIP pass if you will) that will allow them to bypass the free member/slot limit of any group and join it anytime.  But while "optional", that account upgrade could still be considered "making members pay" if looked at from the same perspective as above, because if the member doesn't purchase that voluntary/optional  account upgrade (or the owner doesn't pay) the member still  cannot join said new non-legacy group they like because it just so happens to have no more free capacity.

So yes, in both of these cases, with cap-limiting plans like these, at the end of the day it is technically making members pay one way or another if you look at it from the perspective of any Groups.io member wanting to join a new non-legacy group and not being able to without SOMEONE having to pay something, voluntarily (member VIP) or involuntarily (owner increases capacity); but from other perspectives as well it does seem there are other indirect ways by which members pay one way or another.

That's partly another reason I'm not personally fond of cap-limiting per-member-pay plans; just like in a restaurant buffet, I'm not fond of limiting user options in order to generate income, I think enhancing/offering more user options instead is better, especially for the long run.  Or a mixture of the two if absolutely necessary, but still much more enhancing than limiting.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

I understand Mark’s proposal and what is grandfathered. That is still my interpretation.


On Jan 9, 2021, at 6:47 PM, Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:

>>>
My interpretation is that the grandfathering would immediately cease to be in effect because the new proposal affects all group members. Even if a group itself is grandfathered in, members may have to start paying to join other groups. Nobody who created a groups.io account thought that was going to happen.
In case that wasn't clear, the grandfathering *would* be in effect if the original owners-pay proposal takes effect instead.
<<<

While we don't know if this is the last time anything gets grandfathered (due to some change) or not, grandfathering would not cease to be in effect for existing grandfathered groups regardless of solution; per Mark (4th topic message) they would stay legacy and would not be subject to the membership-cap+charge plans presented; they will stay as they are, no caps, and any Groups.io member can join them for free.  But those groups' members would indeed be subject to the new rules when they attempt to join non-grandfathered groups, but then again we don't have anything like user grandfathering.

Cheers,
Christos


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

>>>
My interpretation is that the grandfathering would immediately cease to be in effect because the new proposal affects all group members. Even if a group itself is grandfathered in, members may have to start paying to join other groups. Nobody who created a groups.io account thought that was going to happen.
In case that wasn't clear, the grandfathering *would* be in effect if the original owners-pay proposal takes effect instead.
<<<

While we don't know if this is the last time anything gets grandfathered (due to some change) or not, grandfathering would not cease to be in effect for existing grandfathered groups regardless of solution; per Mark (4th topic message) they would stay legacy and would not be subject to the membership-cap+charge plans presented; they will stay as they are, no caps, and any Groups.io member can join them for free.  But those groups' members would indeed be subject to the new rules when they attempt to join non-grandfathered groups, but then again we don't have anything like user grandfathering.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

txercoupemuseum.org
 

I fail to see the distinction you imply here.  If “the rules” change for group OWNERS, obviously those changes apply to their subscribers.  The platform hosting them can and will implement changes in the relationship over time (just like your bank); and, yes, those changes CAN affect subscribers.  But, in most cases with grandfathered groups, subscribers, at least in mine, remain relatively ignorant of the intricacies of Groups.io.

I would go so far as to say NONE of my subscribers have ever investigated other groups within Groups,io with the idea of perhaps joining them.  Just not an issue, from my experience.  You, of course, have found a number of groups of similar interest that “cross-pollenate”.  

Fine, but, in my humbug’s;e opinion the ability to do so is certainly NOT an unlimited, “grandffathered member.user/subscriber right”.  It is an incidental privilege subject to modification at any time in any manner by either Groups.io OR the group owner.

Subscribers have NO rights other than as the group owner chooses to grant them, and those are obviously constrained by the realities of the platform hosting them.

Best,

WRB

— 

On Jan 9, 2021, at 6:28 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 04:24 PM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
Group owners should know that their provider can and will implement changes as necessary for a platform to remain viable, or even make a profit.  There are the “natural prerequisites" of ownership.  Any and all expectations to the contrary are simply irrelevant.
Exactly right. Owners. Not "users" or "members."
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 04:24 PM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
Group owners should know that their provider can and will implement changes as necessary for a platform to remain viable, or even make a profit.  There are the “natural prerequisites" of ownership.  Any and all expectations to the contrary are simply irrelevant.
Exactly right. Owners. Not "users" or "members."
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

txercoupemuseum.org
 

We need to keep our eyes on "the ball” here.  Groups.oi serves OWNERS.  Group owners, serve their subscribers.

Group owners should know that their provider can and will implement changes as necessary for a platform to remain viable, or even make a profit.  There are the “natural prerequisites" of ownership.  Any and all expectations to the contrary are simply irrelevant.

I, for one, have never contemplated my members joining other groups.  Most of them see no difference whatsoever in being in Groups.io as opposed to being in Yahoo groups, and that’s fine with me.

Best!

WRB

— 

On Jan 9, 2021, at 5:22 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

My interpretation is that the grandfathering would immediately cease to be in effect because the new proposal affects all group members. Even if a group itself is grandfathered in, members may have to start paying to join other groups. Nobody who created a groups.io account thought that was going to happen.


On Jan 9, 2021, at 2:30 PM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 03:02 PM, billsf9c wrote:
Grandfathering, once in place, cannot end without the Grandad itself - IO proper, ending
I was thinking more along the lines of a company acquiring GIO.  There are many cases of major changes when a new company is in charge of a business.  Just look at Yahoo, from the time Mark sold groups to them to where they ended up.

Duane

--
J


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

Bob Bellizzi
 

Yahoo , once it was the top internet company, cconsistently snatched defeat from the jaws of victory over the rest of its' history.
They even outdid Sperry Rand in that regard.
If ever you want a company to bleed technology,money and good people, stuff your board of directors with ex Yahoo directors.

They either broke or butchered every product they acquired.

--

Bob Bellizzi


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

In case that wasn't clear, the grandfathering *would* be in effect if the original owners-pay proposal takes effect instead.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

 

My interpretation is that the grandfathering would immediately cease to be in effect because the new proposal affects all group members. Even if a group itself is grandfathered in, members may have to start paying to join other groups. Nobody who created a groups.io account thought that was going to happen.


On Jan 9, 2021, at 2:30 PM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 03:02 PM, billsf9c wrote:
Grandfathering, once in place, cannot end without the Grandad itself - IO proper, ending
I was thinking more along the lines of a company acquiring GIO.  There are many cases of major changes when a new company is in charge of a business.  Just look at Yahoo, from the time Mark sold groups to them to where they ended up.

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

Duane
 

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 03:02 PM, billsf9c wrote:
Grandfathering, once in place, cannot end without the Grandad itself - IO proper, ending
I was thinking more along the lines of a company acquiring GIO.  There are many cases of major changes when a new company is in charge of a business.  Just look at Yahoo, from the time Mark sold groups to them to where they ended up.

Duane


moderated Re: Samuel's Paid User Proposal #suggestion

txercoupemuseum.org
 

Hi Dwayne,

You said (in part):  "While I do appreciate the grandfathering that is in place, at some point I expect it to end.  Maybe not while Mark is in charge (hopefully for a long time ;>), but someday.”

Back many years ago when I lived in California there was an older “tax reformer” by the name of Howard Jarvis that managed to get passed (by the referendum process) an absolute limit on property tax increases for homeowners.  It was called “Proposition 13”.  After all the hue and cry from the bureaucrats, it took effect.  The world didn’t end.

They made it a “one-time thing”, so if you didn’t have a home when it [assed, you didn’t get the benefit.  When you moved, you couldn’t take it with you.  So, over time, it made less and less difference to government finances. 

In the same sense, over time, grandfathered groups will make up less and less of the demographics of Groups.io to the point their existence won’t make that much difference.  There is no reason Mark can’s put “growth limits” on grandfathered groups, since there IS an operational in redistributing lots of emails to subscribers.  He might even require, at some point, that “free groups” mandate digest delivery (less operational burden).

In short, there is no intrinsic reason that grandfathering has to end.  Like all things it can be managed, in terms of cost.

Best!

WRB

— 

On Jan 9, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 10:34 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
So I can juwt tell anyone I don't think should be forced to pay
No one would be forced to pay as I read it.  There would be 'free slots' for each pricing tier that could be used or the group owner could upgrade to a higher tier with more free slots, as well as having the option of paying the incremental fee for additional members.   Unless/until the 'site membership' (assuming that's the plan) is implemented, there's no way to know how many people would get one.  Even though I have several grandfathered groups, including a Premium group, I'd still be willing to pay up to $10 per year to GIO for a membership.  I'm guessing/hoping that there would be quite a few people that feel the same, but we can't know unless it happens.

Based on Mark's comments and some research on my part, large groups are the exception rather than the rule.  Yes, it would be of some concern for those groups that attract a large number of members, but a site membership option might minimize the need to upgrade a group while still bringing in $$$ for GIO.

While I do appreciate the grandfathering that is in place, at some point I expect it to end.  Maybe not while Mark is in charge (hopefully for a long time ;>), but someday.

Duane

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