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moderated Re: Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

OTOH after posting this I know only that I, as group owner, can set mods with no permissions to receive the notifications. But I don’t know if the mod themself can opt to receive the notifications. It’s possible they are selectable  by me but not by the mod in their view of their member page. I haven’t tested that yet.


On Jan 1, 2021, at 3:27 PM, J_Catlady via groups.io <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I seem to remember (although it may be wishful thinking) Mark making it so that only mods with the corresponding permissions had the options to receive notifications. This was something I requested at one point and I thought it had been changed. But it hasn't. Any mod, with any subset of permissions (including the null set), can elect to receive notifications for anything: pending members, pending messages, etc. Did I imagine the statement about the fix? It's very difficult to traverse all the notification threads at this point.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Gray out option for mods to receive notifications without the corresponding permissions #suggestion

 

I seem to remember (although it may be wishful thinking) Mark making it so that only mods with the corresponding permissions had the options to receive notifications. This was something I requested at one point and I thought it had been changed. But it hasn't. Any mod, with any subset of permissions (including the null set), can elect to receive notifications for anything: pending members, pending messages, etc. Did I imagine the statement about the fix? It's very difficult to traverse all the notification threads at this point.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Mike Hanauer
 

I have no knowledge of Mark's thinking, and would prefer to let him speak for himself, where he wishes to, rather than have others speak for him.

My thoughts are only to express alternative ways to look at the situation, and perhaps express my view of a balance between what might work for GIO and what might work for moderators and users - stakeholders. Hopefully that might result in a model that is both profitable and sustainable. I have doubts that the present projections meet that criteria.

AllTheBest

Consider Better, not Bigger. So many advantages. Just ask. USA adds a Chicago to our overpop each year.
"Still more population growth is not our way to a healthy community, a healthy planet, OR enjoyable cycling."

    ~Mike


On Friday, January 1, 2021, 06:06:33 PM EST, Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:


On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 10:18 PM, Mike Hanauer wrote:
Those represent a thought process that I go through when evaluating a venture. I suggest Mark personally do the same.
Well I for one expect that Mark has done exactly that, but I would not expect him to reveal the details.

It's called commercial confidentiality.

Chris


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 10:18 PM, Mike Hanauer wrote:
Those represent a thought process that I go through when evaluating a venture. I suggest Mark personally do the same.
Well I for one expect that Mark has done exactly that, but I would not expect him to reveal the details.

It's called commercial confidentiality.

Chris


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Mike Hanauer
 

I don't care of the answers. Those represent a thought process that I go through when evaluating a venture. I suggest Mark personally do the same. Rather than just criticizing, why not state your objection? 

Consider Better, not Bigger. So many advantages. Just ask. USA adds a Chicago to our overpop each year.
"Still more population growth is not our way to a healthy community, a healthy planet, OR enjoyable cycling."

    ~Mike


On Friday, January 1, 2021, 05:04:54 PM EST, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:


On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 01:51 PM, Mike Hanauer wrote:
How much, Mark, do you feel you need to make from all your endeavors to meet your desires?
Within that, how much must come from Groups.i
You're seriously purporting to ask Mark how much income he wants, and how much of it he wants to come from groups.io?
God I love this thread...
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

 

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 01:51 PM, Mike Hanauer wrote:
How much, Mark, do you feel you need to make from all your endeavors to meet your desires?
Within that, how much must come from Groups.i
You're seriously purporting to ask Mark how much income he wants, and how much of it he wants to come from groups.io?
God I love this thread...
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Mike Hanauer
 

I think more important is for assessing pricing is:
  1. How much, Mark, do you feel you need to make from all your endeavors to meet your desires?
  2. Within that, how much must come from Groups.io
  3. Then, how to get there in a way that balances the needs of moderators and members and the perception of price stability with the income need.
AllTheBest.

Consider Better, not Bigger. So many advantages. Just ask. USA adds a Chicago to our overpop each year.
"Still more population growth is not our way to a healthy community, a healthy planet, OR enjoyable cycling."

    ~Mike


On Friday, January 1, 2021, 04:33:28 PM EST, billsf9c via groups.io <oowonbs@...> wrote:


Maybe we could think and suggest better if we first ask Mark...

How much do you need per group?
And/or...
How much do you need per member...
To fund all that must be funded, including 'growth.'

Pointing out that at 5$/groups we join would cause me to drop all but 1 or 3 groups I'm in (of perhaps 30, most of which I am inactive in,) is a cumbersome way to describe our potential to pay... aside from the difficulty of payment if it is done group by group. Rewarding non-posters who lower bandwidth is a recipie for failing lists. Maybe rewarding those who don't read online helps, but then Premium is shot in the foot.

BillSF9c


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Duane
 

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 03:33 PM, billsf9c wrote:
Pointing out that at 5$/groups we join
I don't believe that was ever mentioned.  You may be thinking about the $5 per account (email address) that was proposed, so you'd only pay $5 per year if you use the same account for all groups.

Duane


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

billsf9c
 

Maybe we could think and suggest better if we first ask Mark...

How much do you need per group?
And/or...
How much do you need per member...
To fund all that must be funded, including 'growth.'

Pointing out that at 5$/groups we join would cause me to drop all but 1 or 3 groups I'm in (of perhaps 30, most of which I am inactive in,) is a cumbersome way to describe our potential to pay... aside from the difficulty of payment if it is done group by group. Rewarding non-posters who lower bandwidth is a recipie for failing lists. Maybe rewarding those who don't read online helps, but then Premium is shot in the foot.

BillSF9c


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Bob Bellizzi
 

Trying to put this email burden into perspective, I've just done a bit of simple math on our main group.
In December we received 379 individual messages from our members. I base this on the message numbers in our archive.
Our December 31 membersip was 3892 but I figured to usinng 38i50 average members which is conservative for our 20 year old group
Doing the math based on premise that all members received individual messages, groups.io transmitted 1459150 total messages to our members.
Doing the math based on premise that all members received digest, each of 12 messages, groups.io would have transmitted 121595 total digests to our members. 
This would have also reduced the compute burden just for message transmission to 1/12 of individual message transmission burden.
BTW it would have also reduced each member's supplier's burden by the same amount.
Of course if all members simply used the online messaging the burdens would be a great deal smaller.

--

Bob Bellizzi


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Bob Bellizzi
 

Shal,
There is also a fairly large amount of compute  burden in modern email for DMARK and other spam preventive measures for each message sent that must be considered when comparing the "burden" difference between individual message dellivery to members and digest delivery.
--

Bob Bellizzi


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

 

Happy New Year to you and everyone too! 😊🐱


On Jan 1, 2021, at 10:10 AM, txercoupemuseum.org <ercoguru@...> wrote:

Progress is inherently a process of vulnerabilities to perceive and manage.  If it does not move at a speed that precludes perfection, it may not advance at all.  I am reminded of the saying that a ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

I seem to remember an earlier comment from you to the effect that we must not let the pursuit of “perfection" blind us to the “good enough” that is possible and achievable sooner within available resources.  

Current progress in medical understanding is such that it has been speculated that the first person to live to 1,000 may have already been born!  Every day you and I do countless things that, to our grandparents, were absolutely impossible!

Best in 2021,

WRB

— 

On Jan 1, 2021, at 10:03 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 07:58 AM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
how much our technical capabilities have advanced over that period
Ha. Not so sure about that. Heard about the giant Microsoft hack? Even Microsoft can't say whether the Russian hackers changed their code or their updates or their cloud storage or anything else. We may be in deep "yogurt" (as you put it) right now.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

txercoupemuseum.org
 

Progress is inherently a process of vulnerabilities to perceive and manage.  If it does not move at a speed that precludes perfection, it may not advance at all.  I am reminded of the saying that a ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

I seem to remember an earlier comment from you to the effect that we must not let the pursuit of “perfection" blind us to the “good enough” that is possible and achievable sooner within available resources.  

Current progress in medical understanding is such that it has been speculated that the first person to live to 1,000 may have already been born!  Every day you and I do countless things that, to our grandparents, were absolutely impossible!

Best in 2021,

WRB

— 

On Jan 1, 2021, at 10:03 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 07:58 AM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
how much our technical capabilities have advanced over that period
Ha. Not so sure about that. Heard about the giant Microsoft hack? Even Microsoft can't say whether the Russian hackers changed their code or their updates or their cloud storage or anything else. We may be in deep "yogurt" (as you put it) right now.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

 

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 07:58 AM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
how much our technical capabilities have advanced over that period
Ha. Not so sure about that. Heard about the giant Microsoft hack? Even Microsoft can't say whether the Russian hackers changed their code or their updates or their cloud storage or anything else. We may be in deep "yogurt" (as you put it) right now.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

txercoupemuseum.org
 

Hi Shal,

Internet operations are obviously infinitely more complex than most of us know, or want to know; and yet it behooves us group owners and moderators to widen our perception and perspective to ascertain what discussions affect how our groups operate, both now and looking into the mists of the future. I would quickly be in “deep yogurt” if I had to covey an overall perspective of all this to most of my subscribers, but you have certainly conveyed to me greater understanding of much that is “behind the curtain’ here in Oz ;<)

I am one of those who was unwilling to “learn a computer language” in order to use a personal computer, and so waited until I became “aware” of the Mac and what it represented back in 1985. Bought a 512k E (enhanced) with a 20 mb hard disk ($4,000+ in those dollars those days) and it took me a decade to fill it!

Looking back to that point in time, ignorance truly was “bliss”; and yet how each perceptive individual’s potential and ability have amplified that of our society through our investment in and use of personal computers make the time before truly look like intellectual “dark ages”. ;<)

The COVID-19 challenge perhaps best illustrates how much our technical capabilities have advanced over that period, and how little our society overall has learned to cooperate in common cause against prevailing pervasive cultural social ignorance. As Walt Kelly said in his “Pogo” comic strip: “We has seen the enemy and he is us”.

Thanks!

WRB

On Jan 1, 2021, at 1:44 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi WRB,

How is this burden less for members on “Daily Digest” than for those
on Individual messages?
The total size of data communicated may not be that much different.

But the total burden is likely less for Digest because there would be up to 12 messages represented in a single digest. So that's up to one twelfth the number of transactions between Groups.io's mail server and the member's. Each of those transactions include overhead in both processing and communication.

If we define these as “incoming”, wouldn’t the messages I send
("outgoing”?) also be a burden on FatCow?
We've got our terms reversed: I was speaking from Groups.io's point of view. That is, when you post a message that is "incoming" to the group, and when it is sent out to the members that is "outgoing" from the group. Nevermind that though (the point of view is arbitrary).

A message you send to the group does consume some resources, at FatCow and at Groups.io, but then Groups.io's resource consumption when the message is sent to the group members is multiplied by the number of members - several hundred times over in your example groups. That multiplication effect doesn't affect FatCow, except to the extent that your group has more than one member using FatCow (and then the multiplier is only the number of those members).

Shal


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 12:12 PM, Jeremy H wrote:
It is a very basic IT/DataProcessing concept that it's all based on bits - storing, changing, copying them - and it's those that drive the costs and benefits of internet/web services - and those are generated - by individual bits - in picocents: but add up to megabucks: and how you charge and account for them, at an additional cost of kilobucks (or less) rather than (unafforadable) gigabucks that is the great business problem of the industry.
To put it another way, large - scale over - quoting ratchets up (in this case) Groups.io's costs, or have misunderstood? 

Chris


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Jeremy H
 

Looking at recent posts, and picking out some points made

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 03:57 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
All those hard-working electrons (and photons).

Shal
It is a very basic IT/DataProcessing concept that it's all based on bits - storing, changing, copying them - and it's those that drive the costs and benefits of internet/web services - and those are generated - by individual bits - in picocents: but add up to megabucks: and how you charge and account for them, at an additional cost of kilobucks (or less) rather than (unafforadable) gigabucks that is the great business problem of the industry.

Dave Sergeant, in message 27516, I thinks set out where groups.io is, and its problems lie.
And Samuel Murrayy in 27515 sets out payment scheme worthy I think of careful considerstion, as balancing payments considering the different positions of owners who are, or not, prepared [1] to pay for their groups, and members who just want  to benefit from them. Perhaps not an 'industry standard' scheme, but maybe one to set a new standard.
(The addition to this I would suggest is a 'reserved for invitees' categorisation for 'free slots', but this is, essentially, a detail add on to his concept)  

Jeremy

[1] I think a better word to express my thought than 'can' or 'want', that have been used elsewhere.


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

 

Hi WRB,

How is this burden less for members on “Daily Digest” than for those
on Individual messages?
The total size of data communicated may not be that much different.

But the total burden is likely less for Digest because there would be up to 12 messages represented in a single digest. So that's up to one twelfth the number of transactions between Groups.io's mail server and the member's. Each of those transactions include overhead in both processing and communication.

If we define these as “incoming”, wouldn’t the messages I send
("outgoing”?) also be a burden on FatCow?
We've got our terms reversed: I was speaking from Groups.io's point of view. That is, when you post a message that is "incoming" to the group, and when it is sent out to the members that is "outgoing" from the group. Nevermind that though (the point of view is arbitrary).

A message you send to the group does consume some resources, at FatCow and at Groups.io, but then Groups.io's resource consumption when the message is sent to the group members is multiplied by the number of members - several hundred times over in your example groups. That multiplication effect doesn't affect FatCow, except to the extent that your group has more than one member using FatCow (and then the multiplier is only the number of those members).

Shal


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

txercoupemuseum.org
 

Hi Shal,

Thanks for the response.

You said: "What matters is how many of your members are on Individual messages: one posted message becomes a burden of up to 875 outbound messages, or 777 in the other group. For most groups the outbound burden is a significant multiple of the number of posted messages.”

I believe I referred to this is the part of the process I referred to as a “re-transmission”? How is this burden less for members on “Daily Digest” than for those on Individual messages?

You said: "Only the messages sent to you are a burden on FatCow (well, plus the messages sent to any other group members that use that service).”

If we define these as “incoming”, wouldn’t the messages I send ("outgoing”?) also be a burden on FatCow?

Best!

WRB

On Dec 31, 2020, at 9:57 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

WRB,

One has 875 members at present, the other 777.

In checking our _“email burden”_ under group activity I find my larger
group, by far the most active,_lists 196 messages_ so far during
December. Of These, 21 were via “Web” and 175 were via “email”, ...
It makes relatively little difference how the message was posted.

What matters is how many of your members are on Individual messages: one posted message becomes a burden of up to 875 outbound messages, or 777 in the other group. For most groups the outbound burden is a significant multiple of the number of posted messages.

To my way of thinking, my email “load” is on the FatCow server (POP
account) ...
Only the messages sent to you are a burden on FatCow (well, plus the messages sent to any other group members that use that service).

and I fail to see how that is in any manner a “burden” on Groups.io
unless this relates to the presumably separate functions of “send" and
“receive”.
Exactly as you described.

In every email transmission there's both a sender and a receiver, and each uses computational and communications resources to process the email transmission. In the case of each outbound message Groups.io is the transmitting part of all of those transactions, where the reception part is distributed among the members' various email services.

Additionally, I have no idea how those using POP accounts and those
using IMAP accounts affect Groups.io other than the “rebroadcast”
burden.
Once the message has been transmitted to the member's service it no longer matters to Groups.io. How the member accesses the message is purely between the member and his/her email service.

On the other hand, members that choose to read the message directly from the group's Messages section on Groups.io do incur some amount of processing and transmission cost, again on both Groups.io's web server and at the member's internet service. I don't know how the cost of this web transaction compares to an email transmission, but I imagine it is comparable, or possibly greater.

All those hard-working electrons (and photons).

Shal


moderated Re: HTML format for incoming emails #suggestion

Shahid
 

Bruce,

The "normalize html emails" box is unchecked. If it were checked then the font color would be removed, which it is not as you can see.

I do not include any constructs (eg iframes, javascript) in the emails. I strip the text to plain text before pasting it in Thunderbird and then the only formatting I do is changing the font to cambria/calibiri, font color, font size, and text alignment. Those are the only changes I make to the plain text. I used to do the same thing in yahoogroups and before that in egroups (what your groups is based off) and I never had any issues.

My browser (Firefox) and OS (win7) has the necessary things to render the email as I sent. I never had these issue in yahoogroups, googlegroups, or egroups.

It's important that the group displays the message the same way as it is in the email because I use the group's message as a website and share that link with others (especially on social media) and they come to the group to see the message  instead of me sending an email to so many people constantly. This is free publicity for your site and benefits you.... and I can't do that if the desired message formatting is lost. Hence the reason my suggestion to fix the issue.

Shahid

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