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locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

KWKloeber
 

Marv ~

Apologies, spellcheck changed my reply to you to "Marc".  Damn Seri.

-Ken


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Laurence Taylor
 

billsf9c <OOWONBS@Netscape.net> wrote:

The problem may not be so much the amount but collection... (with a
side of sticker-shock.) Buck a person may be ok per list but 50+
cents to mail it in ranckles folks. We don't all use plastic. Paypal
might sorta work if they take checks.
Can you use BACS (Credit Transfer)? Most banks can do this online or
over the phone. You just need the recipient's account details. I pay
nearly all my bills this way.

--
rgds
LAurence
<><


moderated Re: Sent Invitations - search field #suggestion

Duane
 

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:39 AM, Steven Knowles wrote:
A feature that I've found would be handy would be for a moderator / owner to be able to search the Sent Invitees log.
A tad more work, but you can find the information in the group Activity Log unless/until this is added.  Select "Invited Member" from the Actions list and search.  If you're looking for a specific person, use their email address (up to the @ sign) in the Search box.  I don't think you could use the Display Name though.

Duane


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

billsf9c
 

The problem may not be so much the amount but collection... (with a side of sticker-shock.) Buck a person may be ok per list but 50+ cents to mail it in ranckles folks.  We don't all use plastic. Paypal might sorta work if they take checks.

If the donor site becomes free for this one purpose maybe folks will have a relative with plastic - although I can pay a bill over the phone or 'net with a checking account. Sometimes they want $1.35 without a human and 4.95 with one.

I have 1 beehive. For years I was a yahoo member of all surrounding counties. Gradually half moved to use private forum services. Membership being 20-35$. I can't afford that for 3 different groups, (whose member-benefits I cannot use anyway, even if local,) much less 10 groups.

I audit so many groups. Many are very low activity. Maybe like some cell phone systems. Pay X for a base 10MBytes. Or 100 for unlimited, per annum, with something inbetween.

In a sense, this business should get better w Covid - but as subscribers are suffering financially, maybe Mark can get Covid business assistance. 

At $50 total a year to cover just 5 of the 25ish groups I'm in... I'm gone. No can do. Old vet barely scraping by.

BillSF9c


moderated Sent Invitations - search field #suggestion

Steven Knowles
 

Apologies if this has previously been suggested. I did search past topics within this group however I don't know whether the search function accommodates boolean operators and so don't know how effective my search has been.

A feature that I've found would be handy would be for a moderator / owner to be able to search the Sent Invitees log. For example, if I wanted to find out whether I'd already sent an invitation to John Smith, it'd be useful to be able to search John or Smith or "John Smith" from within the Sent Invitees page. Rather than scroll page by page.


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Ellen Moody
 

Okay.  Now thank you.  These changes take place January 18th, 2021. I am told in this one these changes are "industry standard,"
so these pricing strategies were known originally.

I haven't read them because it would take time and I would probably have questions (not understand everything) and since
they do not (I hope "not as yet") apply.

Ellen Moody


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Peter Cook
 

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 12:10 PM, Ellen Moody wrote:
There were no dates cited.
Ellen, it's in the first message of the thread, here: https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/27191 

              "For groups upgraded after Monday, January 18th, 2021 at 9am Pacific Time,..."

{Pete


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Ellen Moody
 

Peter, that main message did not tell me the date.  There were no dates cited.  Do I have to go through that whole thread (it's long) to
 discover the date (s) all the new stuff is to begin?

Ellen


moderated Re: All photos show "Taken" date as 12/31/1969 #bug

 

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 7:35 AM Peter Cook <peterscottcook@...> wrote:
Every photo in every album in my groups (including some taken yesterday) have a "Taken" date of 12/31/1969. Discussed on GMF  - https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/35939 .

This should be fixed now.

Thanks,
Mark 


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Peter Cook
 

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 12:00 PM, Peter Cook wrote:
Ellen, here are the details: https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/2719 .
Sorry, here: https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/27191 


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Peter Cook
 

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:55 AM, Ellen Moody wrote:
Can I ask when will the new price changes and whatever else goes with it go into effect?
Ellen, here are the details: https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/2719 .

Pete


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Ellen Moody
 

Can I ask when will the new price changes and whatever else goes with it go into effect?
Although my 3 lists are grandmothered in, I'd like to know when these changes are going
to happen.

Ellen Moody


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

KWKloeber
 

Marc


<<<But when the 1001th customer arrives your capacity is exceeded, performance tumbles and you start having outages. Then you have a problem.>>>


Nice explanation/model.  Thank you (my comment about adding 1 to 400 was obviously tongue-in-cheek.)  But as I said, what you say above is true in the fictional model only when #1,001 has activity that’s the same as the 1,000.  There’s nil cost to add 500 or 1,000, if they are all essentially non-users of bandwidth or storage (infrastructure.)  Storing names and email addresses and flipping around an email is ‘near zero’ cost I would imagine, in terms of hard costs. 

In our situation I described, I wouldn’t expect any substantive cost difference whether our membership was 400 or 1600, when there are only 2 dozen active members. 

(Discounting the cost of stringing cable to the house) you can have 100 or 10,000 cable subscribers if no more than the same number of TVs are turned on at one time.

Am I missing something fundamental?

I think of gio as a sort of community, opposed to Y!G or GG, and want to see Marc succeed for many reasons.  On the other hand an increase of nearly a grand a year is impossible to make work for, I fear, too many for it to succeed and — although we’re gf’d in now and I’m not the owner — I’d hate for our group to be in the situation of needing to migrate again from another failed service like Y!G. 

Ken K


moderated All photos show "Taken" date as 12/31/1969 #bug

Peter Cook
 

Every photo in every album in my groups (including some taken yesterday) have a "Taken" date of 12/31/1969. Discussed on GMF  - https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/35939 .

Pete


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Marv Waschke
 

On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 09:13 PM, KWKloeber wrote:
Since this was the free service that was better than sliced bread, I think Mark might provide an explanation as to how the cost is closely related to the # of members.  i.e., How does 401 members cost 55¢ more? What costs money, seems logical to me, is activity, not so much the number of members. 
Just thought folks might like to know a little more about how this business works. I don't know about Groups.io, but I have experience with the economics of providing online services. The costs are usually stepwise, not linear and not easily allocated to the number of customers.

Putting it more concretely, suppose you provide an online service to 500 customers that costs you, the service operator, $1000 per month and you charge your customers $4 per month, giving you $1000 net per month with 500 customers. (Revenue=500x$4= $2000. Cost=$1000. Net = Revenue - Cost = $2000 - $1000 = $1000).

Providing services to 501 customers is also $1000 per month. In fact, providing services to 1000 customers is likely to also be very close to $1000 per month. Why? Because you use the same infrastructure (software, compute, storage, network) to provide for 500 as 1000 customers. There is little difference between using a sliver of available capacity and using most of available capacity. That means that adding customers costs you, the service operator, almost nothing. For every dollar your customers pay, that dollar goes straight to your net. At 1000 customers, your net is now $3000.  (Revenue = 1000 x $4 = $4000. Cost = $1000. Net = $4000 - $1000.) Not bad.

But when the 1001th customer arrives your capacity is exceeded, performance tumbles and you start having outages. Then you have a problem. You have to add capacity or lose customers. Enough capacity so that you don't have to run through the same drill next week, but if your revenue is based on the number of subscribers, that 1001th subscriber will only add $4 to your net, which won't buy any additional capacity at all. So you dip into your reserves (you do have reserves don't you?) and raise your capacity by a factor of ten. The economy of scale makes your cost for 10,000 customer capacity only $5000, not the $10,000 you might expect. That looks great because at 10,000 customers you would net $35,000 per month (Revenue = 10,000 x $4 = $40,000. Cost = $5000. Net = $40,000 - $5000 = $35,000.) Quite a jump from $3000 a month net.

Holy Mackerel Batman! This looks like a money machine!

The catch at 1001 customers, you are losing money to the tune of $996 per month. (Revenue = 1001 x $4 = $4004. Cost = $5000. Net = $4004 - $5000 =. $996 LOSS). Your net is underwater until you take on an additional 200 customers. (Rev = 1200 x $4 = $5000. Cost - $5000. Net =$5000 - $5000 = 0). There's money to be made, but you have to get your paying customers above 1200 before your losses drive you out of business. A traditional business solution in this kind of bind is the "loss leader" to hustle customers in the door.  In fact, free services are more business savvy than traditional loss leaders because there's less affect on cash flow. And you can sometimes use your free customers as a sort of buffer for testing while shielding your paying customers. Adding 10 free customers does not increase your cost, while attracting 20 paying customers with 10 free gets you closer to that magic point where your net begins to emerge from the sea of red.

Real life is more complicated than my cooked example and cloud computing has taken some of the sting out of excess capacity (even cloud fees are usually stepwise), but the general principle is valid: online costs tend to stay constant as the number of users increase, then jump disproportionately when a threshold is crossed. Business models must eventually reflect that reality. Most past online service business models, including Mark's, have been less than future-proof and times are changing.  There are lots of ways this nut can be cracked, and I expect to see a lot of different ways in the next year or so.

The discussion here is all toward better models, and that is good. Best, Marv


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

toki
 

On 25/12/2020 17:22, Charles Roberts wrote:
I would be willing to bet that there is a LONG line of folks salivating to be
able to start putting ads on Gio. Doubt if any soliciting would be needed......ever.
It is called list sponsorship. I don't know the ROI a sponsor would expect, for an annual payment of US$3,000. (One person I know that sponsors such things, expects a dollar or sponsorship money to generate at least 5 dollars of gross revenue.)

Hunt around, and list-owners might find a firm or two willing to sponsor the list. This can be done

jonathon


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Donald Hellen
 

Sorry, I meant "Drew"

On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 16:17:13 -0500, "Donald Hellen"
<donhellen@roadrunner.com> wrote:


Shal . . .

On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 10:10:51 -0500, "Drew" <pubx1@af2z.net> wrote:


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Bill Burns
 

On 26-Dec-20 4:17 PM, Donald Hellen wrote:
I just mention this so others know there's a whole 'nother world out
there on the internet. Groups.io came along a long time after the wild
west days of the internet.
Donald
Mark set up the predecessor of Groups.io in 1998, having been using email lists since 1989 :

https://wingedpig.com/category/onelist/

As you say, a good few years after Usenet, but still a pioneer of modern email list software.

--
Bill


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Donald Hellen
 

Shal . . .

On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 10:10:51 -0500, "Drew" <pubx1@af2z.net> wrote:


In any case there are still USENET providers around who charge
individuals a mostly flat fee for access to thousands of groups. (Some
people may not know that USENET was the original "groups".)
My cable internet provider used to provide access to Usenet for free.
I now pay $2.95/mo for a small number of GB of data, plenty for me
since I don't download copyright protected movies and certain types of
pictures.

There are free providers but they are iffy for connections at times,
so the small fee is worth it for me from forteinc.com.

Usenet is full of spam in many groups but there is still some useful
content available.

Yes, it was the original groups. I have access to about 140,000 Usenet
groups last time I checked. Some of the free access services don't
offer near that much, and my cable provider only offered about half of
that number.

I just mention this so others know there's a whole 'nother world out
there on the internet. Groups.io came along a long time after the wild
west days of the internet.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Drew
 

Sorry, I didn't follow the cable tv analogy.

In any case there are still USENET providers around who charge individuals a mostly flat fee for access to thousands of groups. (Some people may not know that USENET was the original "groups".)

Supposedly they are making a profit doing so. They do charge more than the various individual pricing plans that have been suggested for Groups.io (usually about $10/mo or less), but there are also free USENET servers for those who can live with short retention periods for posted articles.

I am considering starting a USENET group for our organization's interests. For reasons other than the present topic the internet climate these days makes it less and less desirable to comply with the designs of corporate entities who have other aspirations besides profit.

Drew

On 12/25/20 18:18, KWKloeber via groups.io wrote:
>>> It just seems like it would make more sense if the subscriber were
the customer instead of the group owner.<<<
***
This makes little or no sense (nonsense?) from Mark’s point of view operating a business.   It would be tantamount (in reverse) to cable subscribers needing to have a relationship with each and every advertiser, NBC, ABC, CBS, ESPN and every other network, and every sports franchise, and every independent station carried, microwave tower owners, satellite communications providers, and everyone else involved in bringing you cable programming — versus just paying a cable bill.  Cable subscribers wouldn’t care to do that no more than Mark should want to do the reverse with group members.
Since this was the free service that was better than sliced bread, I think Mark might provide an explanation as to how the cost is closely related to the # of members.  i.e., How does 401 members cost 55¢ more? What costs money, seems logical to me, is activity, not so much the number of members.
We have 1600+ members, about two dozen are active and post and take up bandwidth with photos etc. The remainder simply receive emails - probably less than 20% of those active actually use the web interface (strictly email posting.)
If that user model truly warrants the kind of costs proposed in the new year, it brings a few things to mind:
If something seems too good to be true, it probable is.   Migrating 1600 from what was free Y! to a new free endeavor with all new and wonderful bells and whistles seemed too good to me (I’m not the owner and wasn’t the one making decisions) and it’s proved out.
And it smacks of either a poorly thought out entrepreneurship or a bait and switch (which I “know” it wasn’t). From a 1600 free group to one at nearly a grand a year is tough to justify that this was realistically and well thought out.  Mark may be an IT genius, but on face value/history not  great at business projections.
I’m fearful that g.io will end up either costing medium-sized users out of the market or becoming nothing but an “elite” service, geared toward enterprise users.  Oh well.
It reminds me of so many friends who don’t have a clue and have said, “I’m gonna open a restaurant (or bar) and make me a fortune.”  They have no clue about the true costs and income involved.
Ken K

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