Date   

locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

 

Haha, it would be a new feature: Cheshire groups!


On Dec 22, 2020, at 11:49 AM, Charles Roberts <croberts@...> wrote:


Yes, me too.  Would be nice if that test group could appear on demand for day or two so a new test could be run as needed then "disappear" and not take up space as a real group would.

Chuck, CABGx3

On Dec 22, 2020 11:40 AM, Drew <pubx1@...> wrote:

I have a "test" group that I subscribe myself to with several different
email addresses. I use it to try out various settings and see what
effect they have on non-moderator accounts. This is better than
experimenting on the "live" group. I'm sure many group owners maintain
such groups.

Drew



On 12/22/20 11:02, J_Catlady wrote:
> I think they're trying to say that there might be a bunch of non-active,
> or even abandoned, go-nowhere basic groups with almost zero members. It
> would be interesting to see if the median would be higher than the
> average. Haven't thought through how that would work in that case, but I
> myself am in, or even own, more of those basic <5-member groups than the
> other kind. The other kind seem to have around 200-400 members.
> --
> J
>
> /Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones./
> /My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. -
> Desmond Tutu
> //
> /
>
>








--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Charles Roberts
 

Yes, me too.  Would be nice if that test group could appear on demand for day or two so a new test could be run as needed then "disappear" and not take up space as a real group would.

Chuck, CABGx3

On Dec 22, 2020 11:40 AM, Drew <pubx1@...> wrote:

I have a "test" group that I subscribe myself to with several different
email addresses. I use it to try out various settings and see what
effect they have on non-moderator accounts. This is better than
experimenting on the "live" group. I'm sure many group owners maintain
such groups.

Drew



On 12/22/20 11:02, J_Catlady wrote:
> I think they're trying to say that there might be a bunch of non-active,
> or even abandoned, go-nowhere basic groups with almost zero members. It
> would be interesting to see if the median would be higher than the
> average. Haven't thought through how that would work in that case, but I
> myself am in, or even own, more of those basic <5-member groups than the
> other kind. The other kind seem to have around 200-400 members.
> --
> J
>
> /Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones./
> /My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. -
> Desmond Tutu
> //
> /
>
>








locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

 

I’m with you on aversion to social media. Those small GIO groups do seem to be a good option and serve a valuable purpose.


On Dec 22, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Sandi D <sandi.asgtechie@...> wrote:

I too am a member or an owner of about 7 groups with less than 15 members, 3 of them with less than 6 members. 
I have an aversion to social media and GIO provided a safe option for family and friends to keep in touch as a group. 
The other 5 groups I participate in range between 120-370 members. 
--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Drew
 

I have a "test" group that I subscribe myself to with several different email addresses. I use it to try out various settings and see what effect they have on non-moderator accounts. This is better than experimenting on the "live" group. I'm sure many group owners maintain such groups.

Drew

On 12/22/20 11:02, J_Catlady wrote:
I think they're trying to say that there might be a bunch of non-active, or even abandoned, go-nowhere basic groups with almost zero members. It would be interesting to see if the median would be higher than the average. Haven't thought through how that would work in that case, but I myself am in, or even own, more of those basic <5-member groups than the other kind. The other kind seem to have around 200-400 members.
--
J
/Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones./
/My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu
//
/


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Sandi D <sandi.asgtechie@...>
 

I too am a member or an owner of about 7 groups with less than 15 members, 3 of them with less than 6 members. 
I have an aversion to social media and GIO provided a safe option for family and friends to keep in touch as a group. 
The other 5 groups I participate in range between 120-370 members. 
--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group.


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

 

Obviously having nothing better to do, I just scrolled through the entire list of publicly listed groups by "most popular" and saw pages and pages of groups in the 60-80 member range that are active. That said, when the membership gets down below around 50, although you do see active groups, you also see more and more groups with no activity for many months or years. But I'm sure Mark has already taken all of this into account. It's an interesting little exploration FWIW.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

 

I think they're trying to say that there might be a bunch of non-active, or even abandoned, go-nowhere basic groups with almost zero members. It would be interesting to see if the median would be higher than the average. Haven't thought through how that would work in that case, but I myself am in, or even own, more of those basic <5-member groups than the other kind. The other kind seem to have around 200-400 members.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Peter Cook
 

On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 01:53 AM, Dave Sergeant wrote:
Mark seems to think the average size of these is 60 or so
Mark wrote "The average number of subscribers to each free group on Groups.io is 85." I took that as fact, not as supposition.

Pete


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Sandi D <sandi.asgtechie@...>
 

Maybe something like a per member pricing structure for free groups over 100 members? Or as was mentioned by Duane, a message pricing structure if messages exceed a certain amount in a specific time period?

Either of those would certainly help those who can't afford $20 a month and who don't need Premium level services but have over 100 members. 

--
Sandi Dickenson


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Dave Sergeant
 

It really comes down to the limit of 100 for free groups is too low.
Mark seems to think the average size of these is 60 or so but even in
the groups I am member of (all free and non profit as far as I know)
600-2000 is more the norm. There may well be loads of micro groups
around or those set up and abandoned but there is no shortage of ones
substantially bigger who have no sensible means to pay the relatively
high cost of Premium.

Dave

On 21 Dec 2020 at 15:12, Andy Wedge wrote:

The only point at which it would seem you need to upgrade to the next
level based upon the number of members is if you have a Basic (free)
group as there is no per member pricing listed above 100 members.

http://davesergeant.com


moderated Re: Preventing the export of a table by non-owners #suggestion

Rick N
 

Pete,

Being able to display the information from a table is enough to be able to gather it, and you don't need to specifically be able to download and collect it.  Google the term "screen scraping" if you're not familiar with it.

Rick

Virus-free. www.avast.com


On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 11:11 AM Peter Cook <peterscottcook@...> wrote:
One of my groups is limited to the residents of my community. It contains database that is an opt-in directory of residents, including some who are actually group members. (It's a holdover from the days when we used to publish a hardcopy directory of everyone in the neighborhood and provide one to every household.) We're grappling with privacy issues here and want to minimize this data getting out into the world, at least in a wholesale way.

So my request is to have the option in the Permissions section of a table to disallow anyone other than the table owner, the groups owner, and/or the group moderators to export the contents of the table.

Thanks for your consideration.

Pete


moderated Re: Calendar issue - ICS shows something other than the UI #bug

Ry Jones
 

Fastmail wasn't interpreting it correctly, which is why I reached out. I was using the python app as secondary evidence because I had deleted the Fastmail calendar that was displaying this behaviour.

Another issue is that there is only one instance of any given calendar in gcal. When one person adds and shares an ICS feed in Google cal, once Google decides to stop syncing it, it stops for everyone across all Google instances.

My earlier request to remove formatting from calendar entries was because, for whatever reason, the old DCI working group invite with formatting caused the parser to break, both at Google and Fastmail. Why? I don't know. Once it's broken at Google, it stops syncing, and because nobody "owns" it, you can't update it and tell Google to "try again"


On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 2:25 PM Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
Hi Ry,

On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 12:57 PM Ry Jones <rjones@...> wrote:
To get the python code to not display the deleted events, I had to change the DTSTART field of the event; changing it from the first instance of that event to one that coincides with the first deleted event.

In reading the spec, it's not clear if this is needed; in my reading of the spec it seems to imply that the DTSTART field should not be modified:

The "EXDATE" property can be used to exclude the value specified in "DTSTART". However, in such cases, the original "DTSTART" date MUST still be maintained by the calendaring and scheduling system because the original "DTSTART" value has inherent usage dependencies by other properties such as the "RECURRENCE-ID".

So I'm inclined to say that the python code is wrong....
 
 
And now, for whatever reason, my fastmail calendar: https://user.fm/calendar/v1-ed6b298fe31d41e47eeff58a3f84f2d9/Hyperledger%20Public%20Calendar.ics contains the correct data.

especially in light of Fastmail interpreting it correctly. Also, I imported the ICS feed into GCal, which interpreted it correctly. Then I exported an ICS feed from GCal, and the DTSTART date was the original one, and the EXDATEs matched what I generated.

Please let me know if you see any other weirdness. 

Thanks,
Mark



--
Ry Jones
Community Architect, Hyperledger


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Peter Cook
 

(2d try)
I'm hoping we can stick to the topic and find another forum to discuss the ins and outs of being a non-profit.
 
Meantime, I'll just leave this here.


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

toki
 

On 21/12/2020 02:35, M K Ramadoss wrote:

No need to use third parties to verify tax exempt status. Applicants can be
asked to provide a copy of the IRS determination letter. In addition, using
In theory, the IRS only has jurisdiction in the United States of America, its territories and possessions.

The practice gets into global politics, but I can't see an organisation whose national tax authority, and charity comptroller, whose attitude is basically "Whilst you are a group of friends whose endeavour is for charitable purposes and whose annual revenue is less than $1,000, get lost" being willing, much less able to handle the paperwork the IRS requires, for it to issue a determination letter.

EIN current tax exempt status can be verified online at IRS.GOV.
And whilst numerous organization whose only connection with the US tax system, is not being able to automatically reject current, and former us residents and citizens fast enough have EINs,no organization whose management has to fill out paperwork, is going to willingly file the paperwork the IRS requires, to obtain an EIN, if they don't need it. And if they do need it, the usual response is to automatically terminate all US citizens and residents from their suspect list, and lists derived from it.

jonathon


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Andy Wedge
 

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 11:59 PM, SP4149 wrote:
The new pricing policy effective Jan 18th establishes that list of 2000 members should be an Enterprise subscription at $4400 per year.
That's not what it says.  If you have a Premium group then it's $220 per year for up to 400 members then per member pricing kicks in if you go above 400 members.  So, 1600 of your 2000 would be charged at $0.55 per year giving you a total of $220 + (1600 * $0.55)  = $1100.00 per year  (add in a bit more if you are paying monthly).

The only point at which it would seem you need to upgrade to the next level based upon the number of members is if you have a Basic (free) group as there is no per member pricing listed above 100 members.

Andy


moderated Re: Calendar issue - ICS shows something other than the UI #bug

 

Hi Ry,

On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 12:57 PM Ry Jones <rjones@...> wrote:
To get the python code to not display the deleted events, I had to change the DTSTART field of the event; changing it from the first instance of that event to one that coincides with the first deleted event.

In reading the spec, it's not clear if this is needed; in my reading of the spec it seems to imply that the DTSTART field should not be modified:

The "EXDATE" property can be used to exclude the value specified in "DTSTART". However, in such cases, the original "DTSTART" date MUST still be maintained by the calendaring and scheduling system because the original "DTSTART" value has inherent usage dependencies by other properties such as the "RECURRENCE-ID".

So I'm inclined to say that the python code is wrong....
 
 
And now, for whatever reason, my fastmail calendar: https://user.fm/calendar/v1-ed6b298fe31d41e47eeff58a3f84f2d9/Hyperledger%20Public%20Calendar.ics contains the correct data.

especially in light of Fastmail interpreting it correctly. Also, I imported the ICS feed into GCal, which interpreted it correctly. Then I exported an ICS feed from GCal, and the DTSTART date was the original one, and the EXDATEs matched what I generated.

Please let me know if you see any other weirdness. 

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Bob Bellizzi
 

There's quite a bit of work to it.
Definitely not for sissies.
I would first suggest that you look at NOLO P
ress's "How to form an Okklahoma Npnprofit" at
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/forming-nonprofit-corporation-oklahoma-36082.html
And then, if that doesn't scare you away, buy their book by the same name.

It gives you the correct step by step procedure.  That series includes lots of auxiliary info also.
I've used their books for both nonprofits and for profit corporations in California and they are definitely worth their modest cost.

--

Bob Bellizzi


moderated Re: Calendar issue - ICS shows something other than the UI #bug

Ry Jones
 

I'm using Fastmail's calendar. Also, when I use a python iCal parser, I see:

ry@mm giocal % grep TSC parsed.txt 

2020-12-24 07:00:00-08:00 - [Hyperledger TSC] Technical Steering Committee (TSC)

2020-12-31 07:00:00-08:00 - [Hyperledger TSC] Technical Steering Committee (TSC)

2021-01-07 07:00:00-08:00 - [Hyperledger TSC] Technical Steering Committee (TSC)

2021-01-13 09:00:00-08:00 - [Hyperledger TSC] Marketing Committee - Developer Relations sync

2021-01-14 07:00:00-08:00 - [Hyperledger TSC] Technical Steering Committee (TSC)


I notice the EXDATE clauses are at the end of the stanza:

BEGIN:VEVENT

X-GIOIDS:Repeat:32226

UID:ulR6.1602175450496383515.i0MB@...

DTSTAMP:20201221T204803Z

ORGANIZER;CN=TSC:mailto:community-architects@...

DTSTART;TZID=America/Los_Angeles:20201105T070000

DTEND;TZID=America/Los_Angeles:20201105T080000

RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;INTERVAL=1;BYDAY=TH

SUMMARY:[Hyperledger TSC] Technical Steering Committee (TSC)

DESCRIPTION:Please see the agenda: https://wiki.hyperledger.org/display/T

 SC/TSC+Meeting+Agendas\n\nJoin Zoom Meeting:\n\n* Click to join ( https:/

 /zoom.us/j/93304666234?pwd=OEswSmpjS2oxeWE2NmZId2hBanBnQT09 )\n* Meeting

 ID: 933 0466 6234\n* Passcode: 069643\n\nPlease download and import the f

 ollowing iCalendar (.ics) files to your calendar system:\n\n* TSC ICS fil

 e ( https://zoom.us/meeting/tJcud-2uqD0oGdCRhSPPVudkYn_hZb-W7SRT/ics?icsT

 oken=98tyKuCrrTsuHNKTshqDRowqA4igLO7wpiFBjad-rhfWMxBldwf9D-x9Ooh9Xe-H )

LOCATION:https://zoom.us/j/93304666234?pwd=OEswSmpjS2oxeWE2NmZId2hBanBnQT

 09

SEQUENCE:0

EXDATE:20201126T150000Z

EXDATE:20201112T150000Z

EXDATE:20201217T150000Z

EXDATE:20201224T150000Z

EXDATE:20201231T150000Z

EXDATE:20210107T150000Z

END:VEVENT



And now, for whatever reason, my fastmail calendar: https://user.fm/calendar/v1-ed6b298fe31d41e47eeff58a3f84f2d9/Hyperledger%20Public%20Calendar.ics contains the correct data.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 12:46 PM Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
Hi Ry,

On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 12:34 PM Ry Jones <rjones@...> wrote:
While trying to debug an issue, I found that the ICS feed:
Shows, for example, a meeting on 24-DEC for the TSC. However, when I look in the UI, that meeting is correctly deleted.
If you look here:
The meeting does not show. It also doesn't show on my UI view, as a user.


I'm thinking it's a calendar specific issue. What calendar program are you using to view the ICS feed? I imported the feed into Google Cal, and no deleted events showed up.

Thanks,
Mark



--
Ry Jones
Community Architect, Hyperledger


locked Re: Pricing Changes #update

Peter Cook
 

On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 03:34 PM, Bill in OKC too wrote:
So how much does it cost to become a non-profit group?
This isn't a GIO conversation, of course. But the first question is not "How much does it cost?" It's "Do we fulfill the state and federal requirements to become one?" 

Look up requirements for non-profit status in [your state].

Pete


moderated Re: Calendar issue - ICS shows something other than the UI #bug

 

Hi Ry,

On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 12:34 PM Ry Jones <rjones@...> wrote:
While trying to debug an issue, I found that the ICS feed:
Shows, for example, a meeting on 24-DEC for the TSC. However, when I look in the UI, that meeting is correctly deleted.
If you look here:
The meeting does not show. It also doesn't show on my UI view, as a user.


I'm thinking it's a calendar specific issue. What calendar program are you using to view the ICS feed? I imported the feed into Google Cal, and no deleted events showed up.

Thanks,
Mark

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