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moderated Site updates #changelog

 

Changes to the site this week:

  • SYSADMIN: Warming up a new email server by gradually sending some email traffic through it and monitoring email deliverability.
  • INTERNAL: Cleaning up some technical debt around logging and tracing.
  • API: Added endpoints to get and manipulate pending messages, including /getpendingmessages, /claimpendingmessage, /deletependingmessages, /rejectpendingmessages, /approvependingmessages. NOTE: These endpoints are still under development.
  • NEW: Moderators have the option of replying to a message on the website from the +owner address.
  • NEW: The /topics-test page has been updated to allow bulk setting of topic reply to.
  • INTERNAL: Using the replica databases to serve /topic URLs for non-logged in users now (mainly crawlers).
  • CHANGE: We now ignore errors in Content-Disposition lines when parsing email messages. We only need the parameters as a check on the Content-Type, so it's not important if we can't parse them.
  • DOCS: Updates from Nina

Take care everyone.

Mark


moderated Re: Cannot reply from +owner address #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 06:34 PM, Marv Waschke wrote:
I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with a moderator able to send under the owner's imprimatur.
Yes, and when you delegate privileges to send emails in something like Exchange a recipient sees the sender as the equivalent of 'moderator on behalf of owner' so it clearly identifies what's happened.  There is no such distinction in Groups.io. There are lots of things I like about Groups.io but this is certainly not one of them.

Andy


moderated Re: Cannot reply from +owner address #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 04:26 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
Bruce, regardless of any member management permissions a Moderator has, unless they have a membership role of Owner, they are not an owner and sending emails as though they are is fundamentally wrong. The fact that Moderators can alter their own settings to choose whether or not to receive +owner emails just compounds the issue.
Andy -- I seriously regret that my proposal has brought to light something that some folks feel to be a long-standing problem.

I don't see how extending the problem really helps. If you want someone to send an email as an owner, make them an owner.  If you want a moderator to be able to send messages or replies other than from their own account, have a +moderator address.
This topic is growing increasingly tangential to the original proposal and its implementation. If a new proposal was clearly stated for consideration perhaps we can discuss it further there.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Topic View screen message editing: making duplicate image-trimming easier/faster #suggestion

 

Hi Mark,

The job of editing a topic's thread to remove unnecessary or duplicate images due to reply non-trimming can be a bit time-consuming.  Right now, the only way to efficiently do it is to open and fully expand the topic in one browser tab, see what messages need editing, open those messages in Single Message View in new tabs, do the edits and close the tabs, then refresh the Topic tab and re-expand all quoted text bits again to make sure you didn't miss anything.  That re-expanding part can take a bit of mouse clicking if the topic is rather long with lots of them showing, and makes the job more time-consuming than it could be, especially if the person editing the messages is not as apt/knowledgeable, and they are doing the cleanup within one tab by editing in-situ while in the Topic View screen; when they are returned back to that screen after editing the message, they have to re-expand them again, so in that usage scenario it takes even longer.

IMO it would be a useful time saver if when one is in the Topic Message View screen and has expanded some or all of the "Show Quoted Text" bits, if they F5-refresh the page or if they edit a message, when they are returned back, the screen retains the state of those bits and renders accordingly.  Right now it resets back, and one has to re-expand them. 

I thought of a few alternative ways of achieving this if keeping the quoted text button state is not practical, they would accomplish the same end.

1: In the main message screen, a new option in the Topic Options pulldown, maybe "Trim Topic", "Clean Topic", etc, which would open the Topic View screen with all the quoted text bits rendering already expanded:




2: Or a variation of no.1 but in the Topic View screen this time; some "Expand/Collapse All ..." button/checkbox/whatever at the top or bottom of the Topic view screen, clicking it would expand (or collapse) all the displayed quoted text bits in the topic.


3. Or in the message display area, a small icon indicator next to the show/hide button, which would indicate if the quoted text contains images or attachments, something like this for example:


You'd still have to expand them again in this case, but it would at least give you a visual clue whether there are images contained therein that message's quoted text, so if you were specifically hunting for images, you would know not to bother expanding the ones that don't show it; or if you were currently cleaning-up dupe images, you would know you took care of removing them in that particular message.
 
Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Cannot reply from +owner address #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 10:08 PM, Jeremy H wrote:
But something which would make it much better would to amend the 'display name' to make it clear that it was from the owner (e-mail - both on reply, and any initial post) - perhaps by adding '(as Owner)' or similar after normal name - so, e.g. (for me) it would say 'Jeremy H (as Owner)', to make it obvious that was speaking with authority, not just another member.
Definitely; that was "No. 2" in my message #16576 in April 2018.

Actually I think there is an (perhaps minor) issue with Display Names, but that's for another topic, perhaps over the weekend.

Chris


moderated Re: Cannot reply from +owner address #suggestion

Jeremy H
 

I agree with Andy that there should be separate +moderator address for moderators (who aren't owners); and would also suggest that use of these (+moderator and +owner) addresses should be controlled by seperate (one for each) moderator privileges.

But will also agree with Marv and Bruce that this would be an extra (and probably much less trivial) change, which will also have implications on the way that at least some groups run themselves; and so should be raised and discussed as such.

Jeremy


moderated Re: Cannot reply from +owner address #suggestion

Jeremy H
 

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 10:21 PM, Chris Jones wrote:
Excellent; many thanks for that.

Chris

 Yes, many thanks.

But something which would make it much better would to amend the 'display name' to make it clear that it was from the owner (e-mail - both on reply, and any initial post) - perhaps by adding '(as Owner)' or similar after normal name - so, e.g. (for me) it would say 'Jeremy H (as Owner)', to make it obvious that was speaking with authority, not just another member.

Jeremy


moderated Re: Member unsuscribed (again) #suggestion

Peter Cook
 

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 04:27 PM, Jim Fisher wrote:
unsubscribed in this way that meant from
every group they belonged to
It's only from the group whose message was marked as spam.


moderated Member unsuscribed (again) #suggestion

 

One of my members was unsubscribed for marking a message as spam, thanks to
clicking a wrong link. However, he sent the notification to resume subscription
to me, asking me to reinstate him. This meant that, for the first time, I
actually saw the whole of one of these messages.

1. Like me and many others, the member reads emails in plain text. In the plain
text version the words "Resume subscription" are not linkified, so there is no
obvious way to do what is required. Can we incorporate the full URL into the
plain text version of that message please? Most email clients will linkify it,
and even for those that don't it can then be copy/pasted into a browser.

2. When I switched to reading the message in HTML I could of course see the
link. I was pleasantly surprised to find that clicking on it reinstated him
immediately, which suited my purpose fine. However, I found it meant I was then
logged in to his account. That's no problem for me, but it might bother some
that this is possible.

3. I thought that when someone was unsubscribed in this way that meant from
every group they belonged to. Maybe I've got that wqrong, but if I haven't then
the wording of the message gives a wrong impression because it says "You will
receive no more emails from that group", rather than from any Groups.io group.

Jim Fisher


moderated Re: Cannot reply from +owner address #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 05:00 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
I wonder what impact it might have on any Moderators who have had a member-management or message moderation function delegated to them.
Bruce, regardless of any member management permissions a Moderator has, unless they have a membership role of Owner, they are not an owner and sending emails as though they are is fundamentally wrong. The fact that Moderators can alter their own settings to choose whether or not to receive +owner emails just compounds the issue.
The change recently implemented only extends that same behavior to replies.
I don't see how extending the problem really helps. If you want someone to send an email as an owner, make them an owner.  If you want a moderator to be able to send messages or replies other than from their own account, have a +moderator address.

Andy


moderated Re: Following a new topic sends out catch-up emails with missing group [Subject Tag] #bug

 

Just an update since that time, the problem still persists.

Cheers,
Christos


moderated Re: Cannot reply from +owner address #suggestion

Marv Waschke
 

As long as it is clearly documented, I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with a moderator able to send under the owner's imprimatur. When I was in business, I frequently designated an assistant to sign for me. Not something to give out lightly, but extremely useful when you are busy and have an assistant you can trust.
Best, Marv


moderated Re: Cannot reply from +owner address #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 06:44 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
A Moderator with as many permissions as an Owner can give them, is still a Moderator, not an Owner and being able to send messages with a From address of +owner is fundamentally wrong.  This option should be restricted to Owners only.
Andy -- Even before yesterday's change, Moderators (and Owners) have been able to send +owner messages using New Topic (see the original request). The change recently implemented only extends that same behavior to replies. In addition, any Moderator with access to the Member List could send an +owner message to individuals via the Send Message dialog. Similarly, Moderators who review Pending messages may send private messages to the sender via the +owner address.

Your proposal is an unrelated change that would need to occur in several places, and I wonder what impact it might have on any Moderators who have had a member-management or message moderation function delegated to them.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Email Delivery - Weekly or monthly options (Daily currently) #suggestion

Mo
 

Hi,

I tried to search to see if this has been raised before, but I couldn't see it.  

Any chance we could have an option of weekly or monthly summaries? Rather just daily.

Cheers
Mo



moderated Re: Cannot reply from +owner address #suggestion

Andy Wedge
 

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 09:33 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
select replying from the +owner address, if you're a moderator.
This approach is incorrect as far as I'm concerned.  There are three distinct membership levels, Member, Moderator and Owner, and unless someone is defined as an Owner I don't believe they be able to send messages are though they are. A Moderator with as many permissions as an Owner can give them, is still a Moderator, not an Owner and being able to send messages with a From address of +owner is fundamentally wrong.  This option should be restricted to Owners only.

Andy


moderated Re: Cannot reply from +owner address #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

Excellent; many thanks for that.

Chris


moderated Re: Cannot reply from +owner address #suggestion

 

Hi All,

The reply form now has a selector to select replying from the +owner address, if you're a moderator.

Cheers,
Mark


moderated Re: If possible, make "disable other reply options" apply to email replies in all cases #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 01:20 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Then lets propose it as a feature. Do you want to do it?
Not really. :-)

Bruce


moderated Re: If possible, make "disable other reply options" apply to email replies in all cases #suggestion

 

Things have actually gotten worse since the member started using "reply all" instead of "reply." So I am now strongly urgng Bruce's proposed fix.

What's happening now is that the member thoughtfully clicks "reply all," which makes the message go to the individual with cc to the group. Then when the individual replies, THAT message goes out privately rather than to the group. Meanwhile I've asked the member to carefully check her "to" field and remove the individual member's address, leaving just the group address.

As Bruce says, this is certainly happening more often than we realize. How many people use PCs running Windows 10? That's the most up to date version, right? So probably tons of people.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: #suggestion Allow add/replace of attachments when editing messages (not just delete) #suggestion

Jim Avera
 

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 07:35 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
audit trail ... to include any changes made while in pending status.
Yes, that makes perfect sense to me.   Allow moderators to edit arbitrarily, but shove the "diffs" into an "Activity" record so it edits can not be done secretly.   Also add a "May edit pending messages" moderator permission so groups which do not want any editing can enforce that.

Allowing moderators to edit is useful, appropriate, and necessary for some groups where members are, realistically, not all able to create "well formed" messages on their own.

But other groups will value "non interference" more highly, and would want to prevent any editing by moderators.

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