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moderated Re: Moderator created new hashtag without permission #bug

Peter Cook
 

Folks, I apologize - I misinterpreted what happened. The moderator in question actually added the new hashtag via the group website before posting the message.

However, there is still a mystery: As I said, her hashtag permission does not allow her to do that. I thought perhaps I had revoked this permission after this happened - but according to the activity log the last time her permissions were changed was before she created the hashtag. I'll investigate further.

Pete


moderated Email delivery issues #update

 

Hello,

We're currently seeing delayed delivery of email. I'm investigating and will post more when I know.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

 

Further nailing down the bug:
It turns out that the notifications are being sent for moderation in my group not because #file-notice is set to Moderated (it's not), but because my group is set to MFF (moderate the first message of every topic). So it seems the main issue is the log entry, which claimis that the notification was moderated because it's a "Moderated integration message" (it's not, even if you understand what "moderated integration meesage" means). It was moderated because it's being considered the first message in a new topic. And that's the secondary issue: each notification is considered the first message in a new topic, resulting in moderation. I don't think it should be.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Moderator created new hashtag without permission #bug

Bruce Bowman
 

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:18 AM, Peter Cook wrote:
Our group message policy setting includes "Messages from members can only be tagged with existing hashtags, otherwise the message is bounced."
Peter -- The wording for this setting is currently being discussed for revision.

Under no circumstances are messages actually bounced based on this setting. The help docs are also unclear on this.

See https://beta.groups.io/g/main/topic/76801206#26257 and provide any comments you have in that topic.

One of our moderators, who does not have permission to create or modify hashtags, sent a message with a misspelled hashtag, and that new tag was then created.
If a Moderator/Owner posts with a new hashtag, the message is not bounced, nor is it held as a draft (as it would be if sent by a Member). It is held as pending (i.e.: in moderation).

If someone subsequently approves the pending message anyway, the new hashtag is created, on the premise that this was intentional.

You can look for this approval in the group's activity log.

It shouldn't have been.
Well, it wouldn't have been, if someone hadn't approved it. That said, I agree that it would be substantially less confusing if Moderator/Owner posts were treated the same as Members with respect to this setting.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Moderator created new hashtag without permission #bug

 

So the message was (correctly) sent for moderation but the hashtag was created anyway, before the message was approved? That does sound like the wrong order.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

 

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 08:39 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
IIRC the Moderation of these Notifications depends on the Group Setting for each group
That seems to be correct. But the bug is that even though my group is not moderated, and even though the hashtags are (correctly) not set to moderated, the notifications are being sent to pending for moderation.

I think I would agree that the use of the word "integration" is perhaps not the best description; aggregated perhaps, but even that is inappropriate if there is only one action notified.
I would avoid all of those adjectives. I think "integration" actually came from groups.io integrations a la Facebook, which is just wrong. "Aggregate," as you point out, is also not appropriate if there's only one upload. I think "upload notification" or "file upload notification" or "photo .." (or whatever) is completely adequate.

I don't think the problem (assuming is it one) can be resolved without a complete redesign of the "Upload" (and "Edit") User Interfaces
I do think there is a problem here, separate from the bug. That said, it seems to be an easy matter to fix the bug at minimum. And I don't think users checking the "notify members" box or not is rocket science.

Thanks for your thoughts.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

Chris Jones
 

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 12:11 PM, I wrote:
I'll come back with some observations later when I have more time available.
It is now "later". :)

I have spent a little time refreshing my memory about all this. My principal recollection is that I ended up thoroughly befuddled about the way things worked, or at least seemed to work. Ultimately I decided that the only option was going to be "see how things worked in practice". In that practice things are (or can be) very different depending on whether or not the original uploader chooses to notify members or not; I have seen occasions where someone remembered to check the "notify" box on some uploaded but not others that could be considered to be part of the same batch, but that is hardly Groups.io's fault! Nonetheless it ends with with a muddled flow of "notifications" that can be hard to unravel. 

IIRC the Moderation of these Notifications depends on the Group Setting for each group, not the moderation status of each individual member. The rights and wrongs of that are perhaps a separate topic, which I am reluctant to start.

The apparent delay in Notifications turning up for Moderation is variable, or at least can be. Again IIRC the "integration window" between an "action" and the notification being originated is (or was) 4 minutes. However, its arrival in a Moderator's Inbox is also a function of how often the mod's email client (assuming that a client is in use) goes looking to see if there is any mail to download. When I bought this PC in early June the default setting was 30 minutes which IMHO was far too infrequent and I reset it to 10 minutes, but that can still mean that there is a 14 minute delay between an "action" and my receiving an email telling me about it. This 10 minute delay also applies to posts for moderation, which means that "moderator 1" can receive the message and approve it some time before it ever appears in "moderator 2's" inbox. In reality it isn't a major issue but it is easy to overlook the fact that the delay exists. 

I think I would agree that the use of the word "integration" is perhaps not the best description; aggregated perhaps, but even that is inappropriate if there is only one action notified. Anyone setting up a new photo album, uploading a few pictures and adding descriptions is going to struggle to get it all into a 4 minute window for a single "aggregated" notification to take place.

One of my original concerns is that the overall process could result in blizzard of notifications (inc moderation notifications) being sent to moderators, but to be fair since then I don't think I have encountered anything more than a serious flurry; it was still a bit confusing though. FWIW I don't think the problem (assuming is it one) can be resolved without a complete redesign of the "Upload" (and "Edit") User Interfaces, but I rather doubt if Mark would welcome any such suggestion. Might be easier than trying to educate group members to use the Files and Photos sections in a more sensible way, though...

Chris


moderated Re: Moderator created new hashtag without permission #bug

Peter Cook
 

I should add - when a member does this, the message is properly kicked back. So the settings are correct.


moderated Moderator created new hashtag without permission #bug

Peter Cook
 

Our group message policy setting includes "Messages from members can only be tagged with existing hashtags, otherwise the message is bounced."

One of our moderators, who does not have permission to create or modify hashtags, sent a message with a misspelled hashtag, and that new tag was then created. It shouldn't have been.

Pete


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

 

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 04:59 AM, Duane wrote:
I would also consider that a bug when it occurs even when the #photo-notice hashtag does NOT have the 'Moderated' option checked, as it does now.  I
Ok, it is a bug. I just checked and neither my group's #file-notice or #photo-notice tags are set to Moderated, yet the notifications are still being treated (and labelled in the log) as moderated.

Further to the bug I have the following suggestions, in the case that the notices *are* appropriately moderated: make the log entry consistent with other log entries for moderated topics (i.e., "requires moderation because the topic is moderated due to hashtag bla bla"). And fix the term "integration message."

My guess is that most moderators, when encountering these approval requests, are going to be mystified and frustrated. Nobody besides the cogniscenti in beta (and in this case, that does not even include me) knows what a "moderated integration message" is, assuming they even check the log to find that arcane explanation; and the required approval exacerbates the already existing delay due to the "combiner." People generally expect "notify all members" on a file or photo upload to proceed immediately.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Testing Notifications; Fault or Feature? #bug

 

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 04:10 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
... Integration sent message "File Notifications #file-notice"
requiring approval because it's a moderated integration message via
email.
I believe the word Integration there is a misnomer,
I agree with this.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

 

Thanks, Chris. I unfortunately mistook that for a reply to my private message and thought I was responding here. I look forward to your comments onlist.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

 

I think the hashtag should not have “moderated” set as a default, if that’s what’s going on. And the term “integration messsge” seems inexplicable and is confusing. 


On Sep 21, 2020, at 4:59 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 05:14 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Why do upload notifications go through pending and require approval?
I would also consider that a bug when it occurs even when the #photo-notice hashtag does NOT have the 'Moderated' option checked, as it does now.  I would expect it to go straight through in that case.  (I won't be turning it off for my groups though, to avoid the umpteen notifications, even with the combiner function, that could be generated by someone unfamiliar with the system.)

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

Duane
 

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 05:14 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Why do upload notifications go through pending and require approval?
I would also consider that a bug when it occurs even when the #photo-notice hashtag does NOT have the 'Moderated' option checked, as it does now.  I would expect it to go straight through in that case.  (I won't be turning it off for my groups though, to avoid the umpteen notifications, even with the combiner function, that could be generated by someone unfamiliar with the system.)

Duane


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

Chris Jones
 

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:14 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
...this will be my final post until someone actually engages on the issue:
I'll come back with some observations later when I have more time available.

Chris


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

 

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 11:43 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
The number of posts in rapid succession has already obscured the issue for me.
Fair enough. Bad habit of mine. Let me clarify it, and this will be my final post until someone actually engages on the issue:

1. Why do upload notifications go through pending and require approval? This seems confusing and unnecessary.
2. Why are upload notifications labelled as coming from "integration" and logged as "Moderated integration message"? They seem to have nothing to do with integration (in the sense of groups.io term "integration" as it applies to Facebook, etc., which is apparently the origin of the term here). This is also confusing.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

Andy Wedge
 

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 05:49 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
the issue I'm calling attention to here,
The number of posts in rapid succession has already obscured the issue for me.

Andy


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

 

And: I am posting here about it because I would consider - heck, I DO consider - this to be a bug. It's not expected behavior. Someone in your group uploads a file or a photo, and checks "notify members," and the notification message comes through pending. There are going to be a lot of users mystified by this and thinking it's a bug. Hence, by that definition (unexpected behavior), it is one. (I think I'm bug, therefore I am?;)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

 

Right. It's all coming back to me about that combiner.

That said, it's not the issue I'm calling attention to here, namely: can someone please explain to me why file and photo notifications (for example) are (a) considered integration messages (apparently derived from Facebook integrations, et al) and (b) even more mysteriously, why they must be moderated? I missed the boat when the testing of the notification overhaul was happening. I now find a bunch of threads about these "moderated integration messags" but none that make any sense to me.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (revised) file upload notification requires pending message approvel for uploaders on mod #bug

Andy Wedge
 

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 04:36 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Aha, turns out it takes about 10 minutes, just came through into pending. A notification is sent to pending regardless of whether or not the member doing the upload is moderated. And I don't understand why.
It's the notifications combiner. See https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25562

Andy