Date   

moderated Re: List-Post header option for individual groups #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 07:04 PM, Drew wrote:
But occasionally someone will want to make particular arrangements for the sale or trade, shipping, payment, etc that should be taken off-list. The current limitations are very inconvenient for this purpose.

There are also other occasions, non topic specific, that it would be preferable for subscribers to have a simple way to go off-list.
Drew -- If you allow (or maybe even force) html messages and do not click the "remove other reply options" box in settings there should be a "Reply to Sender" link in the message footer. 

Why is it again that you are unable to take advantage of this? Right now it seems like you're asking Mark to do something to overcome a self-imposed limitation. Not trying to be snarky but I guess I just don't get it yet.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: List-Post header option for individual groups #suggestion

Drew
 

That will not work for us. We would like to have both options available to individual subscribers: most replies will go to the group by default; less often individuals will want to go off-list.

For example: items for sale or trade are sometimes posted to the entire group; there may be followup inquiries or comments about the items from other subscribers, also of interest to the entire group. But occasionally someone will want to make particular arrangements for the sale or trade, shipping, payment, etc that should be taken off-list. The current limitations are very inconvenient for this purpose.

There are also other occasions, non topic specific, that it would be preferable for subscribers to have a simple way to go off-list.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On 09/03/20 11:44, Mark Fletcher wrote:
On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 6:12 PM Drew <@af2z <mailto:@af2z>> wrote:
Since there is no Reply-To-Sender message footer link in plaintext
formatted groups like ours we must either copy & paste the email
address
between headers in the mail reader, or click the View/Reply Online
footer link, which then requires several more button clicks (REPLY,
PRIVATE, QUOTE).
This necessitates an explanation from moderators every time they ask a
subscriber to "take it off-list"; and posting of reminders to the group
on the steps required for replying to sender only, whether online or by
copy/pasting headers.
Just refreshed my memory by looking back at the old topics addressing this. I have a suggestion. You can use the new `Reply To Followers Only` topic setting to move discussions `off-list` (that is, hidden from the rest of the group). No need for your members to change their behavior, no need for you to post reminders on the list. If you see this happening, you can just change the reply-to setting of the topic to this new setting and any further replies only go to the topic participants and not the entire group. You could also set up a hashtag to automatically set a topic to that setting.
Mark


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

Chuck Palmer
 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:56 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
A simple solution is a one-liner below the billing info, to the effect that “Your billing info, if entered, will be used for any groups you create that require payment, and for donations you elect to make to any of your groups that are enabled to ask for donations. You can change or remove it at any time.”
That idea seems like a good, pragmatic solution.  It does not involve a lot of heavy lifting and would definitely help minimize confusion.

-chuck


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

 

Hi Mark, I sent a possible blurb for the text. It’s a few posts downstream.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 10:37 AM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:


Hi All,

I'm not inclined to remove the tab. If you have suggestions for improvements to text on that page, I'd definitely consider that.

Thanks,
Mark

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

 

Hi All,

I'm not inclined to remove the tab. If you have suggestions for improvements to text on that page, I'd definitely consider that.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

 

Because I don’t like the ultimate effect. Billing info appearing and disappearing. Not being able to enter my billing info when ^I* want to do it (even if I want to do thst before joining or creating any groups). Etc.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 10:14 AM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


Why?

Best,

Glenn

On 9/3/2020 09:57, J_Catlady wrote:
Yes it can be done, but should it? I say no.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


On 9/3/2020 09:39, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

So, I'm a software engineer for Second Life. We have over 2.6 million resident groups in our system and we provide realtime group information, include roles for a member.

The simple db schema for such a thing is to have a user table which has information about users, including a UUID for the user; a groups table that has information about groups including a group UUID and a roles table that has role information including a role UUID. Then, there is a simple mapping table that has rows consisting of tuples (userid,groupid,roleid) that is updated whenever someone joins, leaves or changes roles in the group. Then, retrieving the roles and groups for a user is a simple SELECT statement against the mapping table and decoding the group and role id's back to human readable strings by a secondary lookup. No "waste of resources" and yes, it is available instantaneously. A query of this kind, even including the subqueries for the strings returns in fractions of a second - yes cycles are used, but not an appreciable amount. This is, after all, what databases are built to do.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

Virus-free. www.avast.com

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



--
PG&E Delenda Est

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: List-Post header option for individual groups #suggestion

 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 10:10 AM Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:45 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
You can use the new `Reply To Followers Only` topic setting to move discussions `off-list` (that is, hidden from the rest of the group). No need for your members to change their behavior, no need for you to post reminders on the list. If you see this happening, you can just change the reply-to setting of the topic to this new setting and any further replies only go to the topic participants and not the entire group.
Mark -- I'm starting to get more than a little confused.

Are "follow topic" records now being created for the originator of a topic (and those who reply to it) regardless of the topic/group/hashtag setting?


No sir. The act of setting an existing topic to `Reply To Followers Only` automatically sets up follow topic records for the person who started the topic as well as everyone who replied.


Mark


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

Glenn Glazer
 

Why?

Best,

Glenn

On 9/3/2020 09:57, J_Catlady wrote:
Yes it can be done, but should it? I say no.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


On 9/3/2020 09:39, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

So, I'm a software engineer for Second Life. We have over 2.6 million resident groups in our system and we provide realtime group information, include roles for a member.

The simple db schema for such a thing is to have a user table which has information about users, including a UUID for the user; a groups table that has information about groups including a group UUID and a roles table that has role information including a role UUID. Then, there is a simple mapping table that has rows consisting of tuples (userid,groupid,roleid) that is updated whenever someone joins, leaves or changes roles in the group. Then, retrieving the roles and groups for a user is a simple SELECT statement against the mapping table and decoding the group and role id's back to human readable strings by a secondary lookup. No "waste of resources" and yes, it is available instantaneously. A query of this kind, even including the subqueries for the strings returns in fractions of a second - yes cycles are used, but not an appreciable amount. This is, after all, what databases are built to do.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

Virus-free. www.avast.com

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



--
PG&E Delenda Est


moderated Re: List-Post header option for individual groups #suggestion

 

I'm reminded of a prior suggestion I made here about a "Like" automatically creating a follow record. Can that be done? If the person Unlikes, I don't think you'd have to worry about unfollowing. (Or you could.)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: List-Post header option for individual groups #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:45 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
You can use the new `Reply To Followers Only` topic setting to move discussions `off-list` (that is, hidden from the rest of the group). No need for your members to change their behavior, no need for you to post reminders on the list. If you see this happening, you can just change the reply-to setting of the topic to this new setting and any further replies only go to the topic participants and not the entire group.
Mark -- I'm starting to get more than a little confused.

Are "follow topic" records now being created for the originator of a topic (and those who reply to it) regardless of the topic/group/hashtag setting?

There won't be a corresponding footer link, so it seems that before Drew could change the topic's reply-to setting, he'd need to first send a reply to the group (within the same topic) stating that it's is being taken off-list and those who want to continue receiving it need to follow it via the web interface. Otherwise, it seems that even some of those already participating in the conversation might mysteriously cease to receive subsequent messages.

Perhaps there's a fine point I'm missing...

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

 

Yes it can be done, but should it? I say no.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:


On 9/3/2020 09:39, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

So, I'm a software engineer for Second Life. We have over 2.6 million resident groups in our system and we provide realtime group information, include roles for a member.

The simple db schema for such a thing is to have a user table which has information about users, including a UUID for the user; a groups table that has information about groups including a group UUID and a roles table that has role information including a role UUID. Then, there is a simple mapping table that has rows consisting of tuples (userid,groupid,roleid) that is updated whenever someone joins, leaves or changes roles in the group. Then, retrieving the roles and groups for a user is a simple SELECT statement against the mapping table and decoding the group and role id's back to human readable strings by a secondary lookup. No "waste of resources" and yes, it is available instantaneously. A query of this kind, even including the subqueries for the strings returns in fractions of a second - yes cycles are used, but not an appreciable amount. This is, after all, what databases are built to do.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

Virus-free. www.avast.com

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

 

Something else that might occur is I join groups.io before I join any groups (I actually did that) and know thst im going to be creating some paid groups and want to enter my billing info at thst point.,Why should the system not let me do that?

A simple solution is a one-liner below the billing info, to the effect that “Your billing info, if entered, will be used for any groups you create that require payment, and for donations you elect to make to any of your groups that are enabled to ask for donations. You can change or remove it at any time.”

Well, maybe that’s not a one-liner, but you get the idea.


On Sep 3, 2020, at 9:39 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

For those groups that I am an owner or that have donations turned on, it makes sense for me to see the Billing menu item and it should be accessible.
There's at least one additional case to consider.  A moderator can have billing privileges to pay for a group without owning it.

Duane

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

Glenn Glazer
 

On 9/3/2020 09:39, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

So, I'm a software engineer for Second Life. We have over 2.6 million resident groups in our system and we provide realtime group information, include roles for a member.

The simple db schema for such a thing is to have a user table which has information about users, including a UUID for the user; a groups table that has information about groups including a group UUID and a roles table that has role information including a role UUID. Then, there is a simple mapping table that has rows consisting of tuples (userid,groupid,roleid) that is updated whenever someone joins, leaves or changes roles in the group. Then, retrieving the roles and groups for a user is a simple SELECT statement against the mapping table and decoding the group and role id's back to human readable strings by a secondary lookup. No "waste of resources" and yes, it is available instantaneously. A query of this kind, even including the subqueries for the strings returns in fractions of a second - yes cycles are used, but not an appreciable amount. This is, after all, what databases are built to do.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est

Virus-free. www.avast.com


moderated Re: List-Post header option for individual groups #suggestion

 

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 6:12 PM Drew <pubx1@...> wrote:

Since there is no Reply-To-Sender message footer link in plaintext
formatted groups like ours we must either copy & paste the email address
between headers in the mail reader, or click the View/Reply Online
footer link, which then requires several more button clicks (REPLY,
PRIVATE, QUOTE).

This necessitates an explanation from moderators every time they ask a
subscriber to "take it off-list"; and posting of reminders to the group
on the steps required for replying to sender only, whether online or by
copy/pasting headers.


Just refreshed my memory by looking back at the old topics addressing this. I have a suggestion. You can use the new `Reply To Followers Only` topic setting to move discussions `off-list` (that is, hidden from the rest of the group). No need for your members to change their behavior, no need for you to post reminders on the list. If you see this happening, you can just change the reply-to setting of the topic to this new setting and any further replies only go to the topic participants and not the entire group. You could also set up a hashtag to automatically set a topic to that setting.


Mark


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

Duane
 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
Let's see...  Let's say 100,000 groups, 5,000,000 accounts, at least 3 possible roles per account.  True, a computer can figure all that out, but it takes computing cycles to do it.  It would have to be an almost instantaneous status in order to be useful, like when someone starts a group and wants to upgrade immediately.  Seems like a terrible waste of resources to me, though I'm sure it could be done.  BTW, I doubt that many of my members (~7,000 total) even know the Billing item exists in their account and no one has ever asked about it.

For those groups that I am an owner or that have donations turned on, it makes sense for me to see the Billing menu item and it should be accessible.
There's at least one additional case to consider.  A moderator can have billing privileges to pay for a group without owning it.

Duane


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 09:23 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.
This is not a simple piece of data in the account. The monitoring required to maintain it would be nontrivial. Any time a group changed the Donations toggle, all the group members would have to be processed. And even if you argue that it's no big deal, I still don't like the end result on the UI - my billing info suddenly disappears like the Cheshire cat, and maybe appears again or I am made to enter it again, possibly over and over again.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

 

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 09:14 AM, Chuck Palmer wrote:
I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.

For those groups that I am an owner or that have donations turned on, it makes sense for me to see the Billing menu item and it should be accessible.

Likewise, if I am not owner of any group and none of groups that I am a member of have donations turned on, that Billing menu item should not be accessible.
I still disagree with the basic premise. Suppose I am the owner of a premium group and have entered my billing info. Should that simply disappear when I downgrade or delete the group? I'm not talking about whether the page to enter it should disappear or be grayed out. I'm talking about the information itself. Suppose the next day I join a group that happens to have Donations turned on. Should my billing info then miraculously (courtesy of the groups.io system) be restored? Or should I be made to enter it again? Etc. I think any of those would be ridiculous. Once I enter billing info, I would expect it to stay there unless I personally delete it. If I downgrade or delete my premium group, and my billing info disappears, and then I create a different premium group an hous later, then what are you proposing should happen?

The simplest solution for naive users is to put some explanation on the page itself. This is not rocket science. If somebody has a problem, you can hold their hand. There are bigger things to worry about.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

Chuck Palmer
 

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 08:04 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
The credit card should be on if any one or more of the groups the user is in has Donations on.
 
Exactly! I'm thinking that I should have been more explicit/precise in my original suggestion.  I would think that somewhere in the back-end of groups.io is my profile that says what groups I am a member of, what my roles are in those groups, and which groups have donations turned on.

For those groups that I am an owner or that have donations turned on, it makes sense for me to see the Billing menu item and it should be accessible.

Likewise, if I am not owner of any group and none of groups that I am a member of have donations turned on, that Billing menu item should not be accessible.

The member base for one of my groups is about retirees who are, in most cases, not that computer literate.  I have the club's website setup to take their yearly membership dues via PayPal.  But I'm now getting questions from members asking "is this where I put my credit card info now?", etc.  It's an Apple Users Group club with about 1,000 members so we run the gamut -- from very knowledgeable members to those just learning how to use their new smart iPads/iPhones.  A bit of a challenge...-;)


moderated Re: Turn off Credit Card tab #suggestion

 

And that's not even mentioning that any member of your group can be the owner of some other group and needs to able to pay for it.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: List-Post header option for individual groups #suggestion

Drew
 

Thanks, Mark.

Since there is no Reply-To-Sender message footer link in plaintext formatted groups like ours we must either copy & paste the email address between headers in the mail reader, or click the View/Reply Online footer link, which then requires several more button clicks (REPLY, PRIVATE, QUOTE).

This necessitates an explanation from moderators every time they ask a subscriber to "take it off-list"; and posting of reminders to the group on the steps required for replying to sender only, whether online or by copy/pasting headers.

With the List-Post header in effect (referring to the Thunderbird mail reader; I assume others are similar...) we will have one-click buttons for replying to either the group or to sender only, with message text being fully quoted in the reply. (I notice that message text is not quoted in replies via the footer link in html formatted groups and must be copy & pasted by hand.)

The List-Post behavior is familiar to our members, many of whom subscribe to GNU Mailman (or other popular software) mailing list groups.

Drew

On 09/02/20 15:33, Mark Fletcher wrote:
On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 9:13 AM Drew <@af2z <mailto:@af2z>> wrote:
The various Reply To Sender contortions continues to be an
irritating hassle for our group. Would it be possible to implement
the List-Post email header as an option for those groups that want
it? It was formerly removed from system wide use at Groups.io but it
would be a welcomed optional feature for some groups.
Can you give me some more information as to why the Reply To Sender stuff is a problem for your group? And what would the List-Post header get you?
Thanks,
Mark