Date   

moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:57 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
I think having a choice of whether I want a push notification or an email (or both) is great; slowing down the delivery of emails (unless the receiver is in control) is not.
But is there any evidence that suggests Groups.io is slowing down email deliveries, even taking into account your other points about possible delays due to polling differences? Every now and then some emails seem to be held up somewhere along the route; on occasions I have had messages turn up post - moderation before the (email) notification that there was something awaiting moderation put in an appearance.

Yes; it's a bit annoying but c'est la vie... <shrug>

Chris

PS to Mark; thanks for turning my push notifications on; I got the first one this morning. For some reason the group I moderate has gone super - quiet in the last few days so I had to wait for something to happen. A nice, clear, clean, unmistakeable appearance. :)


moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 09:45 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
The only solutions (not ones that I am suggesting that Mark should implement, nice as they might be) would be one in which the notification was sent after (say) 10 minutes inactivity on the part of the originator, or perhaps one whereby the originator was prompted by Send Notification Now? somewhere.
Or even better, allow the combiner to be turned off and/or the delay to moderator controlled

I suspect that the "inconsistency" is down to the intervals at which an email client polls
No, the inconsistency I was referring to is the spacing between events listed in one notification email from Groups.io

the default setting on the email client (Outlook) was 30 minutes. My preference is for something rather shorter so I have set it to 10 minutes
It has always been my understanding, and my own testing seems to back this up, that those send/receive time intervals apply to IMAP and POP3 collections. If you have Exchange accounts in Outlook (which my main ones are) then the mail collection is triggered by an email arriving at the Exchange server, so the send/receive intervals don't apply anyway. For all the IMAP email accounts I have defined in Outlook, the send/receive interval is set at 2 minutes. So, before this combiner process kicked in, I'd get two notifications almost simultaneously, one in Outlook and one in Firefox. I think having a choice of whether I want a push notification or an email (or both) is great; slowing down the delivery of emails (unless the receiver is in control) is not.

Regards,
Andy

Andy


moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 11:20 PM, Andy Wedge wrote:
I don't like this combiner approach with a 4 minute delay. <snip> If the combiner delay was something more reasonable, say 30 seconds, that would be better as I can understand the need to combine some quick-fire changes into one notice, however, 4 minutes is way to long me and I'd rather have the option to turn the combiner off than have that.
and later wrote: The spacing on the email notification for certain events is not consistent...

I can easily come up with with a counter - argument that 4 minutes isn't nearly long enough, say if someone is creating a new album. 4 minutes may not be enough to upload all the relevant photos, let along go back and perhaps edit the photo names and add some descriptive text. If that is the case the new album may not be ready - to - eat for perhaps 30 minutes or more, in which case a 4 minute aggregated notification will be somewhat premature, and 30 seconds definitely so.

The only solutions (not ones that I am suggesting that Mark should implement, nice as they might be) would be one in which the notification was sent after (say) 10 minutes inactivity on the part of the originator, or perhaps one whereby the originator was prompted by Send Notification Now? somewhere.

Moving to the later point... I suspect that the "inconsistency" is down to the intervals at which an email client polls the mail provider's server. The PC on which I am typing this was set up less than a fortnight ago,  and the default setting on the email client (Outlook) was 30 minutes. My preference is for something rather shorter so I have set it to 10 minutes, but even that is enough for an apparent inconsistency to appear; if a notification arrives just before a poll then the email delivery will seem to be immediate, while if it just misses a poll the delivery will be 10 minutes "late".

Not much Groups.io can do about that...

Chris


moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 02:37 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
I was concerned with the first-out delay time introduced by the combiner, but now I think I may be fine with it, given that push notifications are still immediate.

Which sort of comes back to Chris' point that the notifications work in different ways https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25572

Some other things I have noticed:

  • push notifications do not identify the (sub)group that the activity took place in. As I am in multiple groups and my main group has 20+ subgroups, knowing which (sub)group the activity took place in is kind of important.





  • The spacing on the email notification for certain events is not consistent:




  • The HTML code for some table descriptions is shown:


Regards,
Andy


moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

 

Mark,

Should be fixed now.

Yup. But this is wrong for a wholly different reason...

> To: Shals2nd"s Display Name <shals2nd@...>
> From: main@shalstest.groups.io Notification <main@shalstest.groups.io>
> Subject: [shalstest] File /Never had a folder before./0-stories.txt uploaded

You knew I had to try it.

Amusingly it seems to have revealed a bug in Thunderbird:
I'm not sure but it looks like it thought the quote lead in a qtext that slurped up the email address proper, leaving the email address part empty.

Didn't fool Gmail's web interface though:


Shal


moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

 

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 7:34 PM Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

In my test group my display name has an apostrophe in it. And, well, yeah:

 > To: Shals2nd&#39;s Display Name <shals2nd@...>
 > From: main@shalstest.groups.io Notification <main@shalstest.groups.io>
 > Subject: [shalstest] Photo IMGP7434 Saturn.jpg uploaded


Should be fixed now.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

 

Mark,

The new moderator notifications have been turned on for those who
asked.
#bug

In my test group my display name has an apostrophe in it. And, well, yeah:

To: Shals2nd&#39;s Display Name <@Shal>
From: main@shalstest.groups.io Notification <main@shalstest.groups.io>
Subject: [shalstest] Photo IMGP7434 Saturn.jpg uploaded
Gotta love HTML.

Shal


moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

 

Andy,

I don't like this combiner approach with a 4 minute delay. It seems to
me that we have a sharp new system to send out immediate notifications
and then we blunt that by delaying them.
OTOH if you want immediacy you can enable it as a web/app notification. That's even faster than prompt email delivery.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25544

Of course, that won't help you (yet) when using the mobile app.

I was concerned with the first-out delay time introduced by the combiner, but now I think I may be fine with it, given that push notifications are still immediate.

Shal


moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

 

Agree 110% with Andy. I haven’t followed the conversation about aggregation but now reading that the notifications are going to be blunted (great word) like this, I’m really shaking my head. I think it’s the wrong approach. Like Andy says: if you don’t like them, turn them off.


On Jun 25, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:54 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
now sent through the combiner,
I don't like this combiner approach with a 4 minute delay. It seems to me that we have a sharp new system to send out immediate notifications and then we blunt that by delaying them. If I want the notifications, I want them almost immediately, if I don't I should have the ability to turn them off.  Earlier, a member in one of my subgroups updated a database. He then emailed me off list to confirm he'd made a change and his email arrived before the Groups.io notification, making that notification pointless. If the combiner delay was something more reasonable, say 30 seconds, that would be better as I can understand the need to combine some quick-fire changes into one notice, however, 4 minutes is way to long me and I'd rather have the option to turn the combiner off than have that.

Regards,
Andy

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

Andy Wedge
 

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:54 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
now sent through the combiner,
I don't like this combiner approach with a 4 minute delay. It seems to me that we have a sharp new system to send out immediate notifications and then we blunt that by delaying them. If I want the notifications, I want them almost immediately, if I don't I should have the ability to turn them off.  Earlier, a member in one of my subgroups updated a database. He then emailed me off list to confirm he'd made a change and his email arrived before the Groups.io notification, making that notification pointless. If the combiner delay was something more reasonable, say 30 seconds, that would be better as I can understand the need to combine some quick-fire changes into one notice, however, 4 minutes is way to long me and I'd rather have the option to turn the combiner off than have that.

Regards,
Andy


moderated Re: Notifications about your own actions #misc

 

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 10:15 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Yes and yes. (No it's not confusing.;)
Whoa, that did not make sense. I meant to say yes to the first, no to the second.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Notifications about your own actions #misc

 

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 11:17 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
email and push notifications behave differently
So do cats and dogs. :)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Notifications about your own actions #misc

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 06:45 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
For pending messages, pending subscriptions, spam resub, join group, and create subgroup moderator notifications, if your action generated the notification, you will not receive a push notification. You will continue to receive an email notification.
I can see the logic to this, however the result is that overall email and push notifications behave differently. Anyone used to email notifications only (i.e. the existing system) will see one set of actions / responses but if they change to using push notifications only they will get a different set. This may (will?) lead to confusion. A notification of any action, even if instigated by "me" has the advantage that it tells the me that "Groups.io has done what you wanted".

Chris


moderated Re: Notifications about your own actions #misc

 

Hi All,

I've changed the push notifications policy as follows:

For pending messages, pending subscriptions, spam resub, join group, and create subgroup moderator notifications, if your action generated the notification, you will not receive a push notification. You will continue to receive an email notification.

For spam unsubscribe notifications, you will continue to receive push notifications for your own spam unsubscribes.

For storage overage notifications, since they aren't generated necessarily by a single person/action, you will continue to receive those push notifications regardless.

Again, this only affects push notifications, and only if you have them set up.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Notifications about your own actions #misc

 

Yes and yes. (No it's not confusing.;)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Notifications about your own actions #misc

 

Hi All,

The existing moderator notifications (pending subscriber/message/etc) are always sent to the appropriate moderators, both email and push notifications (if you have them configured).

When I set up the new moderator notifications (create a chat/add file/etc), I set it so that if you were the person doing the thing that triggered the notification (ie you were the one that uploaded the photo), that you would not receive the notification, either as an email or push notification.

I have a couple of questions, triggered by J's request:

- Should I extend that change to the existing moderator notifications? 
- Should the policy instead be that email moderator notifications are always sent, but push notifications are not sent in the case where you did the thing that generated the notification?

Hopefully this isn't too confusing....


Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

 

This morning I removed the hashtags from the new moderator notifications. My thinking was that these notifications aren't controlled by hashtag muting, so having the hashtags would be confusing. And it matches our existing moderator notifications, which have never had hashtags.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Testing notifications #misc

 

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 10:42 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Note that moderator notifications are not sent to you if you did the action that caused the notification.
Mark, I am getting web/app notifications whenever I post a message, because I have myself on moderation so that I can edit my messages (and to make sure I didn't send them to the wrong place). While I can live with this, I do find it a bit disconcerting every time. :) Is there a way to fix this?
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Notify Members checkboxes #update

Sandi D
 

"Up until now the owners/mods determine if something reaches the
attention of the members."

I would like to clarify the above sentence. If I as a mod make an edit I would like to have continued control over whether or not my action reaches the attention of those in my group.

Much of my wiki edits are "clean up". It's a waste of time to notify everyone when I clean something up and then spend more time in answering posts asking me what had changed or they can't find the "new" information.

It sounds like Mark may understand that aspect. I do understand that I am fortunate to have only one area impacted but that one area created a 3 day "migraine" for myself and a headache for the members of my group. 

Shal's interim fix and then Mark's temporary one worked perfectly for my need. I am very appreciative and hope Mark's permanent solution does the same.

--
Sandi Dickenson
ASG Volunteers Group.


moderated Re: Notify Members checkboxes #update

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 08:06 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
The only other option is (I think) that a moderator did the edit. I would want the member to be notified in that case, you and other group owners/mods may disagree.
Again I can see the validity of this view, although I am not entirely convinced!

It raises an issue of "what is an edit?" A change of album / photo name? The addition of (or change to) the descriptive text? (Silly but valid case... correction of a spelling mistake!) Unless the notification  includes some detail what has been edited may be less than clear, leading to "what has been done, what is this notification actually telling me?

Chris