On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 07:07 AM, Shal Farley wrote:

That is, Mark didn't rename the old #wiki into #wiki-notices, he just added the new one internally, and it gets created in the group when used.

I have a moderated #wiki hashtag defined in my testing subgroup from the first incarnation of these and no #wiki-notice. I just updated a wiki page and I see a pending message with a #wiki-notice tag that is sent out if I approve it. However, a new #wiki-notice hashtag is not created, the new message shows as an extra message tied to the old #wiki hashtag.

Andy

Chris,

After Mark's changes I'm certain that I had a look and the /-notice/
had been added to the hashtags, but now it has vanished again.

Oh! I misunderstood you. Now I see what you mean.

I think what happened is that the Hashtag pages now have both spellings if the feature was used in your group during both intervals of time.

That is, Mark didn't rename the old #wiki into #wiki-notices, he just added the new one internally, and it gets created in the group when used.

At least that's what I see in GMF - There are both spellings in the list/grid view, with the #wiki hashtag listing only the one topic created while it existed, and the #wiki-notice hashtag listing the two that have posted since.

I should probably instantiate all the other new spellings manually, and adjust them all to use the orange color I put on the old ones and have a description. After the dust settles again I can probably alias the old ones out of the list.

Shal

Mark,

Ok, so create a bunch of new per-moderator notification toggles under
the 'Notifications' section of each moderator's subscription, that
have to do with the various types of content on the site (ie wiki,
files, photos, etc), anything we send a #-notify message about.

Yes, I like that better than what I suggested.

The sending of these notifications to moderators would be independent
of whether the notification ended up being sent to the group or not.
The notifications to moderators would be what I'm currently sending to
the groups when the 'Notify Members' checkbox is checked.

In this scenario, I would keep the newly added group notifications,
along with their default-unchecked 'Notify Members' checkbox.

Is that right?

Yes!

I actually want to notify the group members in my social groups. In those I'd probably set "Notify Members" on by default if I could.

Probably not so much in my PTA group, but members have very little capability there (all but announcement only). All the Wiki, File and Photo content comes from the moderators.

That's like the concept of subscribing to notifications about
something. The creator of the wiki page would be automatically
subscribed to notifications of changes to it, with the option to
unsubscribe at any time.

Precisely. It may make sense to subscribe any member who edits the page also.

I'd also apply it to cases where someone (a moderator perforce, I think) edits the Description and other info about their Photos, Files, and Calendar events as well. I'm not sure what to say about Database tables (maybe yes) and rows (hm...), but the principle seems to apply there too.

Shal

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 01:42 AM, Shal Farley wrote:

So maybe the notifications just aren't happening in your group now.

I'm not sure why that should matter. Just after this process started someone did a couple of photo uploads and I did a wiki edit, all of which were notified in the format without -notice. After Mark's changes I'm certain that I had a look and the -notice had been added to the hashtags, but now it has vanished again.

Unless of course I imagined the whole thing... :(

I'll try a couple of test uploads later.

Chris

Changes to the site this week:

• CHANGE: Guidelines sent monthly will now have the hashtag #guidelines-notice.
• CHANGE: Monthly notices will now have the hashtag #monthly-notice.
• BUGFIX: Notification messages did not obey group moderation settings.
• NEW: Added notifications for new photos uploaded and wiki additions/changes. Added the #file-notify hashtag to file upload notifications.
• CHANGE: When uploading files, the checkbox to notify the group is now checked by default.
• INTERNAL: Changed combinerd daemon to use nsqd.
• INTERNAL: Added a utility to check for and fix timezone subscription copy-down inconsistencies in the database.
• CHANGE: Fixed plain text digest subject lines to include subject tags/group titles
• NEW: Add a Send A Test Notification button in the Account notifications page to test if notifications are working.
• BUGFIX: Fix issue with merging a topic into a topic that had an apostrophe in the subject line.
• BUGFIX: If attempting to upload a photo to the Files section, and the group is configured to disallow that, we would still generate an upload notification.
• NEW: Web push notifications are now supported for Chrome, Firefox and Opera browsers via a new tab in the Account section.
• NEW: You can specify to have push notifications sent on a per-hashtag basis.
• NEW: Moderator notifications will now be sent by default via both email and web push notifications, if you have them configured. Moderator notification settings are now dropdowns instead of checkboxes.
• NEW: Moderator notifications for pending members and pending messages will only be sent to moderators with privileges to approve them.

Take care everyone.

Mark

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:41 PM, Shal Farley wrote:

I did not anticipate that these notifications would be shared with the entire membership

This is why I've been suggesting a separate controls/options page for when and to whom each notification is emailed out in a group. I think you need to be able to control if the notification is sent to just moderators, for example. I'm with you on the wiki changes, for one. All the time I've been requesting wiki change notifications, I never dreamed they would be sent out to the whole group, just to the mods. It also depends on who in a group has permissions to do these actions (e.g., upload files). In my group, only mods can do that so there's no situation where a member can upload a file and choose not to notify. Maybe notifications should be coordinated with permissions.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Mark,

I have changed the |Notify Members| checkbox when uploading files so
that it defaults to being unchecked, as before. I have also added new
|Notify Members| checkboxes when adding/updating wiki pages and when
uploading photos. They default to being unchecked.

I know that this is just a stopgap, but the directions many commenters are pushing make this mechanism unfit for purpose. At least for my needs.

My vision for the notifications overhaul was most fundamentally that I, as a group moderator, would get notification of group activity. Creating / editing content in any group area: all in. I did not anticipate that these notifications would be shared with the entire membership, and with that all the push-back that has caused.

If a member can choose not to notify me, if a group owner can decide not to allow notification of a given type of content, or of any type, then it doesn't suit the needs of a moderator who wants to actually moderate - which requires knowledge of what's being stored in the group.

Two things I think can help.

1) If the user chooses not to Notify Members, or if a Notification's hashtag controls would cause it not to be posted by email, send it to each owner/moderator by email, and/or web/app notification, regardless - subject only to that owner/moderator's Email and Notifications settings.

2) Under the same conditions, send/push it to the owner of the affected content anyway (unless it is they themselves taking the action). The concept here is to follow the precedent of Message editing, where the poster of a message is always informed of any edit. I'd like to see that concept extended to the other content a member may contribute.

Shal

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 07:58 PM, Shal Farley wrote:

This hints at two other things to watch for: Group Guidelines and Monthly Reminder. These particular notifications can only be created by a group moderator, so I don't think they need to obey any group-wide moderation setting when posting (and they haven't, to date).

I'd also be interested to know what plans may be in the works for the integration hashtags (#email, #feed, etc).

Bruce

It’s not a bad idea. It’s not as if there’s not already the ability to delete messages from the archives, so it doesn’t violate anything sacred. But this is way off topic.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

J,

So there’s now a no-archive option on topics (and hashtags)?

No, that was just my proposal.

I do think it would fill the bill as a per-notification off switch. But it is a bit of a sharp edged tool that might be confusing if misapplied to ordinary group postings.

Shal

Chris,

Has this change been reverted? I cannot find any in the *#xxxx-notice*
format now, and I definitely saw them yesterday.

What has been reverted is the default check for the Notify Members box on file uploads. So maybe the notifications just aren't happening in your group now.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25463

Shal

No, totally. There has to be a way to turn them off, I agree. It’s just a funny way of doing it. (I know Mark has now provided another way.) So there’s now a no-archive option on topics (and hashtags)? Seriously?

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

J,

Lol no-archive, no-email. I’ll have ham and eggs but hold the ham and
hold the eggs. 😊

Yup, you get what you deserve: nothing.

But that's precisely what some group owners have said they want with respect to the new notifications.

Shal

Shal,
Lol no-archive, no-email. I’ll have ham and eggs but hold the ham and hold the eggs. 😊

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

J,

Shal's crazy-brilliant idea of setting the tags to "moderated," as
well as to "no email," should work for most people meanwhile.

Also for the record, I didn't come up with those. But I have been repeating them. Wish I remembered who deserves due credit.

I did suggest "No Archive" as a new counterpart to "No Email" though.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25029

Shal

J,

That's odd. Mine are sent monthly but have only the #guidelines
hashtag.

Whoops, right you are.

The #monthly was in the Subject box of the notice's page; so I probably did that.

Shal

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 04:58 PM, Shal Farley wrote:

Currently (as of 06-01) the monthly group guidelines message has two hashtags: #monthly #guidelines;

That's odd. Mine are sent monthly but have only the #guidelines hashtag.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

Mark,

#cal-invite messages will be moderated. #cal-notice and #cal-reminder
messages will continue to not be moderated even if the group is
moderated. Seems complicated.

The calendar always has been, and looks like it will remain, a problem child. I think it is because it can cause an action at a future date/time, and that action's point is at least blunted, if not defeated, if the action doesn't happen on schedule.

This hints at two other things to watch for: Group Guidelines and Monthly Reminder. These particular notifications can only be created by a group moderator, so I don't think they need to obey any group-wide moderation setting when posting (and they haven't, to date).

Currently (as of 06-01) the monthly group guidelines message has two hashtags: #monthly #guidelines; perhaps that should consolidate to #guidelines-notice. The Monthly Reminder has none; perhaps it should have #monthly-notice. Just to fit the pattern.

Shal