Date   

moderated Re: File upload notifications

Judy F.
 

I totally agree that it should be unchecked by default. 
Judy F.
SW Florida - USA


On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 10:57 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 03:00 PM, M Parker wrote:
I am pleased to see that the Notify Members checkbox when a file is uploaded is now checked by default.
I would very much like to see it go back the way it was (unchecked by default). A positive action should be required by a user in order to generate a file upload message. If you forget to check the box when you want a message, there's always the option of reloading the file with the option checked. Forgetting to uncheck the box means the message gets sent. I know there's now a #file hashtag that could be moderated but that is an extra thing to monitor and I would want to have to moderate file uploads from other members and determine whether or not they actually wanted a message sent or they had just forgotten to uncheck the box.

Andy


moderated Re: New notifications #update

Michael Pavan
 

While these Notifications might be informative and perhaps useful to some, the additional email traffic they generate is unwelcome for many people, especially if their Inbox is already very busy. They are likely to be deleted without being read 'messages' and are as annoying as SPAM, plus their effectiveness may be like the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" all the time.

Automatic 'System Notifications' remind me of websites that require clicking through many pages to get to desired content, apparently to achieve a Marketing goal of high 'click rates'.

They may be good/great for those that want all the extra messages, but an unnecessary nuisance for others;
e.g. I have a Group that had 311 messages in 20 years for its monthly in-person meetings (Dances, and Musicians playing and/or singing), which Covid-19 has canceled indefinitely. I created 2 Wiki pages listing various online events that may be of interest which I've updated 313 times total in 69 days (as I discover them, often at the 'last minute').
These new notifications would have increased its message frequency rate from 2 to 136 per month!

Yes, after the 'shock' of the first #wiki Notifications, I have set: Hashtags > Edit Tag and checked the No Email box.
I do not look forward to having to do that for each new #hashtag surprise, and for each of my Groups


Hashtags (and Notifications) are like graffiti - some people like/love them, others want to remove and prevent them.

I already had Admin > Settings: Message Policies
set to:
-Hashtags Required (unchecked)
-Hashtags Permissions: "Messages from members can only be tagged with existing hashtags, new hashtags will be removed."

Please add:
-Hashtags Prohibited (checkbox)
AND
-Hashtags Permissions: "Messages from members tagged with hashtags, hashtags will be removed."
-Hashtags Permissions: "Messages tagged with hashtags, hashtags will be removed."
-Hashtags Permissions: "Messages tagged with hashtags, will be Moderated."
AND
Allow Moderators (with permission) to Edit Message (in Archives) to remove hashtags


Unless there is a Security need, features should be Opt-In (which is respectful), rather than require awkward and time consuming Opt-Out workarounds to curb Groups.io 'Junk Mail'.

Thanks,
Michael


moderated Re: File upload notifications

Duane
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:32 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Why wouldn't you want your members to know about files being uploaded?
On most of my groups, one of the rules is that you will NOT notify the group when a file is uploaded.  After loading the file, a new topic with a link to the file and a description of what it's for should be sent, possibly leading to discussions.  Because not everyone names files well, nor provides a good description, this works much better for us.

On another group, for a club, everyone knows that I'll be uploading minutes as secretary, as well as banking information as treasurer, on a regular basis, so an announcement is just annoying clutter.

Regards,
Duane


moderated Re: File upload notifications

Margo Seegrist
 

Hi Mark,

I'm applying your comments about files to photos.  In my group, there are times I quietly upload photos and other times I upload them and then kick out an email to share the photo.  I quietly upload it generally when the person has already shared it with the group as an Attachment.  I quietly put it in the album for them so they don't need to see it again or get an email saying I put it in the album.

That's my reason for not needing a notification that I put the card in the album.

Sincerely,

Rli@...

In a message dated 6/18/2020 9:32:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, markf@corp.groups.io writes:

Andy,

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:57 AM Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

I would very much like to see it go back the way it was (unchecked by default). A positive action should be required by a user in order to generate a file upload message. If you forget to check the box when you want a message, there's always the option of reloading the file with the option checked.

Why wouldn't you want your members to know about files being uploaded? Isn't the whole point of uploading files being that your members can then access them? I'm confused.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 09:42 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
I would ask - plead even -  that moderators should have the option of turning individual motifications off at least until a better way of managing them can be identified.
Pleading and begging here also. We need at least a rudimentary "off" switch asap.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New notifications #update

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 04:08 PM, Duane wrote:
I did an informal survey of some of my members.  No one wants any/all these notifications sent to them.
OK; I haven't done a survey but I suspect that what Duane said about nobody wanting a blizzard of notifications is entirely correct.

After a member uploaded some photos to the group I moderate 2 notifications were generated. I then edited our photo archive index which is held (with links) in the group wiki; another notification sent out. On the plus side the notification about the photos enabled anyone to find them very easily, but the wiki notification only identified which page had been edited, so was of lesser benefit to the wider membership.

I suspect that a group membership may become at first frustrated and eventually actively annoyed at being over - notified. The more granular a notification system is the greater is the potential for annoyance on the part of a group membership, especially since anecdote tells us that many or most members never use the web UI at all. 

I would ask - plead even -  that moderators should have the option of turning individual motifications off at least until a better way of managing them can be identified.

What would be the practicalities of sending a "Notifications Digest" once per day per group? At least it would increase the daily message tally by just one rather than n, where n is a potentially large integer.

Chris


moderated Re: File upload notifications

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 09:36 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Sometimes I work iteratively; sometimes I post temporary files; etc.
And actually there are simply some files - a lot of them, including every cat's labwork, which constitute the vast majority of files in our group - that I simply don't want to announce to the whole group have been uploaded. I will often just tell the individual member that their cat's labwork was uploaded. Not all files in every group are relevant to every group member or need to be announced when uploaded.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: File upload notifications

 

Mark,

I noticed you wrote at the beginning of all this:
"The Notify Members checkbox when uploading files is now checked by default, in preparation for removing it at some point."
What does that mean? Is the plan to remove it at some point, and if so, why have it checked now?

In answer to your question to Andy about wanting group members to see files, yes, we do. But that doesn't imply we want all group members notified at the particular moment we upload every file. Sometimes I work iteratively; sometimes I post temporary files; etc.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Missing reminders #bug

Don Pottenger
 

I created an event on our calendar to be every Tuesday and Thursday at 9:00am to 10:10am. After creating the event the decision was made to add a reminder to this event. (This was at least 2 days before the first day the event was to take place. I added a reminder for 18 hours before the event. Here is the event reminder detail.

The reminder was never sent. Neither for the first occurrence, this past Tuesday, nor the one for today.
My group is VillasofAda.

[Mod note: Added a subject]


moderated Re: File upload notifications

 

Andy,

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:57 AM Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

I would very much like to see it go back the way it was (unchecked by default). A positive action should be required by a user in order to generate a file upload message. If you forget to check the box when you want a message, there's always the option of reloading the file with the option checked.

Why wouldn't you want your members to know about files being uploaded? Isn't the whole point of uploading files being that your members can then access them? I'm confused.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 08:08 AM, Duane wrote:
There's already been a flurry of complaints on GMF due to the notices being sent to the groups.
I'm not surprised! There has to be a simple and quick way for mods to turn each notification, and later to specify details of how and to whom it is sent. Meanwhile I'd settle for a quick-and-dirty "off" switch for each one. Possibly they should even be off by default.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

I requested wiki change notifications but *always* assumed they would be available only to moderators. That is a problem overall: there is no mechanism to make sure a given notification is sent only to moderators. With the new scheme I'm suggesting, all the possible notifications would be on one page (the notification specifications, not their hashtags). Certain notifications would by default be available/viewable only to moderators, and/or constrained by owners to be available to certain moderators with the correct permissions. You could choose not to have wiki notifications go out at all, or go out only to mods; same with all the other kinds. The notification hashtags could be specified on the page for each notification. The hashtags would also be in a separate block, and would have certain options automatically unchecked by default or simply not available (e.g. the problematic "no email," also probably "moderated," etc.) ("Locked" could be set by default so that nobody can answer the notification, but could be changed by mods if desired.)


On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:08 AM Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 06:09 AM, Sandi D wrote:
I don't want everyone in my group getting a wiki notification for every spelling and grammar error that I correct. Or for fixing a broken link.
I did an informal survey of some of my members.  No one wants any/all these notifications sent to them.  They don't care what goes on behind the scenes, they just want useful information that is posted to the group that may help them with problems.  Even as a moderator/owner, there are very few that I'd want to see, mostly when something on the group is changed - photos added, wiki page added/changed, file uploaded, messages edited, etc. (and then via email, not instant browser notifications) - but not notify the whole group.  There's already been a flurry of complaints on GMF due to the notices being sent to the groups.

Regards,
Duane


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: File upload notifications

 

Agree that it should be unchecked by default, don't know why it was changed.


On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:57 AM Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 03:00 PM, M Parker wrote:
I am pleased to see that the Notify Members checkbox when a file is uploaded is now checked by default.
I would very much like to see it go back the way it was (unchecked by default). A positive action should be required by a user in order to generate a file upload message. If you forget to check the box when you want a message, there's always the option of reloading the file with the option checked. Forgetting to uncheck the box means the message gets sent. I know there's now a #file hashtag that could be moderated but that is an extra thing to monitor and I would want to have to moderate file uploads from other members and determine whether or not they actually wanted a message sent or they had just forgotten to uncheck the box.

Andy


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New notifications #update

Duane
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 06:09 AM, Sandi D wrote:
I don't want everyone in my group getting a wiki notification for every spelling and grammar error that I correct. Or for fixing a broken link.
I did an informal survey of some of my members.  No one wants any/all these notifications sent to them.  They don't care what goes on behind the scenes, they just want useful information that is posted to the group that may help them with problems.  Even as a moderator/owner, there are very few that I'd want to see, mostly when something on the group is changed - photos added, wiki page added/changed, file uploaded, messages edited, etc. (and then via email, not instant browser notifications) - but not notify the whole group.  There's already been a flurry of complaints on GMF due to the notices being sent to the groups.

Regards,
Duane


moderated Re: File upload notifications

Andy Wedge
 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 03:00 PM, M Parker wrote:
I am pleased to see that the Notify Members checkbox when a file is uploaded is now checked by default.
I would very much like to see it go back the way it was (unchecked by default). A positive action should be required by a user in order to generate a file upload message. If you forget to check the box when you want a message, there's always the option of reloading the file with the option checked. Forgetting to uncheck the box means the message gets sent. I know there's now a #file hashtag that could be moderated but that is an extra thing to monitor and I would want to have to moderate file uploads from other members and determine whether or not they actually wanted a message sent or they had just forgotten to uncheck the box.

Andy


moderated Re: 'No email' attribute ignored on 'file' hashtag #bug

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 06:15 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
I had 'no email' specified but an email was still sent to my test subgroup.
Andy, do you mean actual emails were sent out to group members, or do you mean that a message was sent to the subgroup? "No email" just means (for a normal hashtag) that the messages in the tagged topic are sent only to the web archive and don't go out as individual emails.

The whole "no email" issue on notification hashtags is problematic. I'm proposing (as in my last message, in the other thread) that that setting, and other inappropriate settings, be eliminated by the system on notification hashtags altogether, or at least turned off by default.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: File upload notifications

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 07:20 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
we need some way to distinguish between the system-generated notification and a message with the #file or #wiki added by a subscriber.
I agree. The system hashtags could/should be set to "use by moderators only." Other attributes of them could/should also be set by default by the system, such as the ones that don't really apply (e.g. "locked," "moderated") and the ones that seem to conflict with alternatively-specified attributes (e.g., "no email"). In the case of "no email," it sounds on the surface like you're trying to specify the conditions and methods under which the notification is delivered. But that could/should be handled elsewhere in the separate "notifications" section I'm proposing.

Each notification would have various options and conditions for delivery, specified by the mods. They would each get a system hashtag, but those hashtags would be specially set up and constrained by the system as above, so as not to conflict with the options of the notification itself. Members could still mute the tags individually.

Those are the lines I'm starting to think along.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: File upload notifications

Bruce Bowman
 

Mark -- I'm thinking that we need some way to distinguish between the system-generated notification and a message with the #file or #wiki added by a subscriber.

In the former case, I might want to mute it, or set it to No Email, or set the Topic Duration to one hour or some such, so it doesn't reside forever in the message archive. In the latter case I would want it to go through to the subscribers immediately and remain forever in the archive.

Currently, the only way available to manage this is to put the hashtag on moderation, which not only increases moderator workload (re: Patti's problem with wiki updates) but also delays the posting of desirable messages.

If we're going to use system hashtags for this, we're going to need some way to keep subscribers from using them (and optimally, keep them off the "top hashtags" list). Since bouncing incoming emails that might by chance contain a reserved hashtag seems rather harsh, I suggest they simply be stripped.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 12:00 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
separate block
Yes, separate block. I'm about to go back and revisit Mark's question about whether notifications should be in a separate place, or something. I did not even understand the question at that point because I couldn't mine to work at all due to the private browsing issue. But the more I see what this is, the more I think there should be a separate "notifications" section, and "notifications" should be separate entities, with all of their appropriate attributes (such as to whom, and when, they are sent out and in what form), and with none of the inappropriate ones. Their hashtags could be incidental, just as with cal-notices. Hashtags would not be the main mechanism for them.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New notifications #update

 

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 05:08 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
There's no way for me to know the reason why notifications aren't available in a browser, so I don't think I can be more specific on the message. But we'll add troubleshooting info to the docs
Mark,

I don't know how many people browse privately as a matter of course, but I suspect it might be non-trivial. I'm thinking you might consider adding something to the effect of "(Some browsers do not allow push notifications if browsing privately.)" below the line stating that the browser does not support notifications. It took several days for me, in concert with a few others here, to figure out what was wrong, and adding something general like that seems easy and might save people from resorting to a troubleshooting page.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu