Date   

locked Re: Unable to delete attachments in queued message

 

On 6 Apr 2015 at 14:25, Mark Fletcher wrote:

Right now the code isn't smart enough to figure out that if an
attachment of that type isn't referenced in a message that it should
be removed. It's on the todo list to be able to delete attachments
before approving a message. That will be fixed up then.
Thanks Mark. As long as I know it's on the to-do, then I don'[t have to fret
it.

--
Jim
Poston@vch-nv.us

<< Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss! >>


locked Re: Annoyance

 

Shal, you seem to have gone past the main subject and picked a couple details to chewed on until the flavor's all gone. I didn't say plain text was better for a group, and I do not and never have advocated limiting groups to plain text. I noted that it had advantages for people with certain limitations, and I wanted to have that option on my groups. The groups that I moderate are heavy with older people and people with limitations, both physiological, financial, and technological, who benefit from smaller plain text messages. There are many groups where typographic text is quite pleasant.

What I find funny is that your example just made my point that old-fashion "typewriting" is NOT suitable for many of the things we do today with our access to modern typography. Instruction manuals and educational books with illustrations have generally been typeset with included images, which just couldn't be done simply and easily with a typewriter. Today our word processing systems allow us to be come our own publishers after a fashion. And yet you managed to say all that with simply written words without all the typographic embellishments that you talked about. For me that's much more useful, as I'm a visual learner who grew up with ADD. Too much visual stuff just gets in the way of understanding in most cases.

I refer to these as “typographic quotes”, and they come in both ‘single’ and “double” style. Notably these are part the UTF-8 character set as well as the older ISO/IEC 8-bit character sets. In other words, they can be used in plain text messages like this one.
I would mention that while these will most likely come out correctly on the group, they still come out as ascii gibberish on my computer.

I was concerned with one detail. For some reason I got your response not only on the group web page, but it came in on my phone as well. Since I'm not set up to receive group messages on my phone, and I haven't in the past, I don't know why that would happen unless it was sent to me intentionally. Not only is this a waste of effort, but useless, as I don't read group stuff on my mobile. Once again, one of the reasons groups are preferable to FB or other types of social media that have to limit size because of the constraints of mobile.
Dano


locked Re: Annoyance

 

Dano,

I've always believed that if you have something worth saying, you
don't need typographic enhancement to make it better.
Even in typewriter class we learned conventions for adding emphasis;
such as underlining to represent what in typography would be italic.
Underlining, while doable on a typewriter and certain printers or
displays, is generally lost to plain text, with only ad hoc
conventions[1] like _underlined words_ to provide such emphasis.

While it may be true that one does not _need_ typographic enhancement to
make it better, those enhancements exist (that is, typography exists)
because they _do_ make the text easier to read and comprehend. At least
when used carefully.

If you need a picture, draw a picture, but if you're writing, use
words in a format the reader finds comfortable.
And there you've hit upon the key weakness of limiting a group to
plain-text messages, which I would otherwise love to do. Plain text does
not support the insertion of illustrations (large or small) in the
running text of a message, in some cases costing the thousand words (or
unnecessary back-and-forth over misunderstandings).

That's not to say there aren't pitfalls in plain text. Too many
systems are set by default to use paired double or single quotes.
You've all seen them - they often look like curved tadpoles, and the
close quote is almost the inverted mirror image of the open quote.
I refer to these as “typographic quotes”, and they come in both ‘single’
and “double” style. Notably these are part the UTF-8 character set as
well as the older ISO/IEC 8-bit character sets. In other words, they can
be used in plain text messages like this one.

But plain text sees them as different ascii characters and they often
come back as code.
They are not ASCII characters[2] - that sometimes causes trouble and is
why you (and I, generally) prefer to use the ASCII apostrophe ' and
quote " characters instead. ASCII is a common subset of nearly all other
character sets still in use (go away EBCDIC fanboys, if there are any of
you left). When the typographic quotes, or other non-ASCII characters,
are used in email sometimes the character set encoding used to represent
them is incompatible between systems.

For example, most modern email systems would encode them as UTF-8
characters, but Eudora Classic (among others) is too old and does not
support UTF-8 - so the typographic quotes end up looking like a string
of three unusual accented characters. Particularly irksome are results
like “don’t” - where an intended apostrophe was inappropriately
converted to a right quote by the sender's user interface. It gets
transmitted in UTF-8, which Eudora displays as the three character
sequence "lower A with circumflex, Euro sign, trademark sign".

-- Shal
[1] Not to be confused with Markdown notation, which is itself a set of
nearly-compatible ad hoc markup languages.

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII


locked Re: Annoyance

 

I understand that's the way it's programmed, I just don't understand why.
This is one you shouldn't blame on computers. This goes back far before that and the brand name on the machine was 'Linotype'. The output was called hot lead type then. Later it became photo typesetting and today we call it proportional fonts. It's how magazines, books, newspapers and catalogs were printed back in 'the good old days', and why your typewritten Courier 10 pitch space-and-a-half just never did look the same. Those professional systems were set up to automatically space words a correct distance apart and sentences a different distance apart. Spaces between letters were also set (this is called kerning) so that an A and Y are closer together than a pair of Ms. There was a big division between those people who just used typewriters and the professionals who worked to make their craft an art form.

Today, computers allow people to look much more professional than ever before, but it gives many users abilities they don't (and often never did) understand or know how to control. The system will still make what you output look as professional as a modern magazine, but you can't work by the old typewriter rules to get that. Then again, you never could!

Having said that, some of you may remember that I'm a big proponent of plain text. Perhaps I should explain why. Plain text is pretty basic and universal. I can send it to someone else and I think it doesn't change because it will come back to me the same. But the truth is, if the recipient has their preferred system font changed to something else, it *does* look different on their system. Someone with visual limitations may have their system set for a preferred font of 14 point Roman Bold, while someone younger may prefer the clean look of 10 point Arial. Plain text allows people to use their own system preference to read messages without imposing that on others.

In many ways, that's a good reason for archives to be in plain text. Everybody can read them in a display tailored for themselves. I've always believed that if you have something worth saying, you don't need typographic enhancement to make it better. If you need a picture, draw a picture, but if you're writing, use words in a format the reader finds comfortable.

That's not to say there aren't pitfalls in plain text. Too many systems are set by default to use paired double or single quotes. You've all seen them - they often look like curved tadpoles, and the close quote is almost the inverted mirror image of the open quote. But plain text sees them as different ascii characters and they often come back as code. True plain text needs the single and double apostrophe like typewriters use ( " or ' ) to avoid defaulting to code. A good typeface translator would catch these error and make the simple conversion, but there are damn few of them in existence.

Before you condemn modern typography because it doesn't follow you old typewriter rules, understand that you were taught what you needed for the equipment you had. Today you have a refined typesetting system many generations of printers would have paid huge sums for. Don't complain that it doesn't drive like a tractor if you want to be driving an auto.

Dano


locked Site Updates #changelog

 

Changes to the site today:

  • When viewing archives in the Message or Expanded Message views, the 'Re:' was missing from the subjects of messages that were replies. Fixed.
  • Improved message threading on the website: For messages with no References and In-Reply-To headers, but that have subject lines that start with 'Re:', we now look for messages sent in the last 7 days with the same subject line. If a message is found, we treat the new message as a reply to that thread.
  • Added an Edit button in the Pending Messages view. It works if only one pending message is selected.
  • Added a better error message when bouncing back messages because we believe an autoresponder or loop is happening (if we've received more than 20 messages from someone to a single group within a 30 minute window).

Cheers, Mark


locked Re: Unable to delete attachments in queued message

 

Hi Jim,

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Jim Poston <poston@...> wrote:

Ran into a little problem today when editing a message in the moderation queue.

It had a bunch of graphic images I was trying to get rid of, you know the MailChimp/Constant Contact type stuff.  I deleted them in the text box, but the images stayed around outside the edit box.  I could highlight them but couldn't do anything with them.

I decided to send the message anyway.  The images did not appear in the text, but they were included as attachments almost all named "GetFile.aspx"


Right now the code isn't smart enough to figure out that if an attachment of that type isn't referenced in a message that it should be removed. It's on the todo list to be able to delete attachments before approving a message. That will be fixed up then.

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: Annoyance

 

Duane,

I understand that's the way it's programmed, I just don't understand
why. If someone wants more than one space any place, they should be
able to just hit the space bar.
Don't confuse the language with a user interface.

The language of HTML treats all sequences of whitespace (spaces, tabs, line breaks) as a single space. This is for convenience in (manual) programming, allowing the programmer to freely use extra whitespace to make the code more readable without affecting the displayed page.

Any user input editor for HTML content should respect the user's whitespace, converting it to equivalent HTML representation (such as &nbsp; or <br> or <p>...</p>) as necessary to preserve the user's intent.

-- Shal


locked Re: Annoyance

Steph <hsrsp@...>
 

Hello Duane,
In reading your message, it looks fine.
Spaces are where they need to be at. Steph

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Duane" <txpigeon@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 11:16 AM
To: <beta@groups.io>
Subject: [beta] Annoyance

I've recently become more aware of an annoyance, not only here, but on many sites/groups/emails. I always put 2 spaces between sentences because that's the way I was taught in typing class many, many years ago. It makes things easier to see, for me anyway. The annoyance is that many things I see now days get converted to a single space. I'm sure this post will be the same, but I'm not sure if it happens if I send a post by email, though probably. When I add info to my web site, I always have to insert the nonbreaking space code sequence plus a regular space if I want 2 spaces. Has this become the new "normal" and I'll just have to get used to it? It sort of makes everything look run-on to me.

Thanks,
Duane





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locked Re: Annoyance

Duane
 

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:20 am, Cacky B <cackyb@verizon.net> wrote:

If you have ever had occasion to learn html, you will learn that when
your text is translated to the web screen, all extra spaces will have
been removed. This would include that second space. It's the way html
is set up to work.
Cacky
I understand that's the way it's programmed, I just don't understand why. If someone wants more than one space any place, they should be able to just hit the space bar.

Linda - I guess I'll just have to be outdated. Seems like a shame to me.

Trish - "Old habits die hard..." I figure I'll die before this habit does. ;>)

Diana - "Good news - it arrived to me in ascii text with 2 spaces." That's one of the reasons I tend to use Plain Text anywhere I can. As long as it doesn't go through an html filter, it should show up correctly.

Thanks again,
Duane


locked Re: Annoyance

Cacky B
 

If you have ever had occasion to learn html, you will learn that when your text is translated to the web screen, all extra spaces will have been removed. This would include that second space. It's the way html is set up to work.
Cacky


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com


locked Re: Annoyance

 

On 4/6/2015 9:16 AM, Duane wrote:
I'm sure this post will be the same,
Good news - it arrived to me in ascii text with 2 spaces.

Otherwise, I understand and sympathize.

dg - also an ancient mariner who learned 2 spaces between sentences,
and 2 <cr> between paragraphs. Made some sense to parse them out when
bandwidth and storage was an issue, but not now.


locked Re: Annoyance

Frances
 

Hi Duane and others,

My solution is to make sure I make “proper” paragraph breaks. And short paragraphs. That adds to readability on screen.

Many people don’t really read online - they simply scan. Adding an extra space doesn’t add to readability, but white space between paragraphs does, imho!

Frances


On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
I've recently become more aware of an annoyance, not only here, but on many sites/groups/emails.  I always put 2 spaces between sentences because that's the way I was taught in typing class many, many years ago.  It makes things easier to see, for me anyway.  


locked Re: Annoyance

Trish McDonald
 

Yes, it seems to be the new normal in cyberspace. I dislike it too. LOL But I'm learning to deal with it. Old habits die hard...

Trish


On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
I've recently become more aware of an annoyance, not only here, but on many sites/groups/emails.  I always put 2 spaces between sentences because that's the way I was taught in typing class many, many years ago.  It makes things easier to see, for me anyway.  The annoyance is that many things I see now days get converted to a single space.  I'm sure this post will be the same, but I'm not sure if it happens if I send a post by email, though probably.  When I add info to my web site, I always have to insert the nonbreaking space code sequence plus a regular space if I want 2 spaces.  Has this become the new "normal" and I'll just have to get used to it?  It sort of makes everything look run-on to me.

Thanks,
Duane








locked Re: Annoyance

Linda
 

Funny you should mention it, Duane. My daughter just sent this to me: http://www.cultofpedagogy.com/two-spaces-after-period/

Linda


locked Annoyance

Duane
 

I've recently become more aware of an annoyance, not only here, but on many sites/groups/emails. I always put 2 spaces between sentences because that's the way I was taught in typing class many, many years ago. It makes things easier to see, for me anyway. The annoyance is that many things I see now days get converted to a single space. I'm sure this post will be the same, but I'm not sure if it happens if I send a post by email, though probably. When I add info to my web site, I always have to insert the nonbreaking space code sequence plus a regular space if I want 2 spaces. Has this become the new "normal" and I'll just have to get used to it? It sort of makes everything look run-on to me.

Thanks,
Duane


locked Re: Quote chopping (was Digest layout)

Duane
 

I'd rather have it as an owner option. If the "run-on quotes" don't get sent, they don't take time/capacity to download. I always try to minimize traffic in consideration of those with old computers and/or slow connections, or who may pay by the byte for internet access. There are still some of us out here.

Duane


locked Re: confirm message

 

Marten,

I ment the mail the user gets before the pending message.
Oh, you mean the "Confirm Your Groups.io Subscription" message when someone uses the group's +subscribe email address. I'd forgotten about that one.

Yeah, maybe Mark could put a place for some group-specific text there too. Sort-of outsourcing his internationalization effort. Opens the door to all the other email command confirmations... ;-)

Though I still say that an acknowledgement, rather than a confirmation request, is appropriate when the command comes from a verifiable address (SPF, DKIM/DomainKeys, etc.) - that doesn't change the fact that the message would be better if appropriately internationalized.

-- Shal


locked Re: confirm message

Marten Post Uiterweer
 

Shal,

I ment the mail the user gets before the pending message.
But meybe I can do something with this too.

Regards, Marten

On Sat, 04 Apr 2015 14:55:13 -0700 Shal Farley <shal@roadrunner.com> wrote:

Marten,

I also want to see an option to edit the confirm message someone
receives when he want to subscribe to a closed group.
If you mean someone that is trying to join a Restricted group (members require approval before being allowed to join the group) then that feature already exists.

In the Group's Settings page click on the "Member Notices" tab, and select "Pending Subscription", you can edit the message there.

-- Shal




locked Re: confirm message

 

Marten,

I also want to see an option to edit the confirm message someone
receives when he want to subscribe to a closed group.
If you mean someone that is trying to join a Restricted group (members require approval before being allowed to join the group) then that feature already exists.

In the Group's Settings page click on the "Member Notices" tab, and select "Pending Subscription", you can edit the message there.

-- Shal


locked Re: Quote chopping (was Digest layout)

 

Jim,

I can understand that there is some risk of losing some meaning, but I
would like to see it as an owner option even on single messages.
If it is to be an option, I think it belongs better to the member's subscription options than to the group's settings. In an individual message the degree to which the run-on quotes are noxious would depend mostly on each member's email reader.

-- Shal