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moderated Re: non-mod usable beta tag set for private replies only #meta

 

And this topic has now so severely strayed off topic that I expect it to be locked soon...
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-mod usable beta tag set for private replies only #meta

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 07:42 PM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
Main@beta seems to be where to submit requests or ideas for consideration.  It’s a “different set eyes, ears, and mindset" from GMF.  Any response from you is, by definition,”official.  Nothing from GMF is "official words”.  That difference is what brings some of us newbies here seeking authoritative words from “on high”.
WRB,

While I completely sympathize and understand your predicament, I think it's important to recognize that virtually nowhere else would you expect the founder, owner, and sole developer of a major software product to make himself available for routine "help" questions about how to use the product. So I think it's unrealistic to come to beta as a newbie because he is here, and because he is the official word, and to expect forebearance for and answers from him for basic questions about how to use the product.

That's why he has designated other groups for that, such as GMF and Group_Help. The people in those groups are more than capable of answering 99.9% of questions from people new to the product. You don't need the "official" word from Mark on how to use hashtags, or how to use advanced subscription preferences, or nearly anything else that already exists as a feature. But, you might say, how do you know if something already exists as a feature or not? Simple. Until you are really familiar with the product, you ask in one of the help forums whether it already exists before making your suggestion on beta.

I hope this makes sense, and I hope I'm not being presumptuous in answering a question that you clearly meant for Mark. Mark is the creator of the whole thing and shouldn't need to answer questions like this. Although he will probably answer anyway. :)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-mod usable beta tag set for private replies only #meta

txercoupemuseum.org
 

Hi Mark,

For every person confident enough to try to voice request for help there will always be many more “lurkers"who breathe a sigh of relief that someone else was having the same problem.  So, after you have read through this post please share with us what hashtag it should have had and perhaps share a screen shot as to how that would look.

Main@beta seems to be where to submit requests or ideas for consideration.  It’s a “different set eyes, ears, and mindset" from GMF.  Any response from you is, by definition,”official.  Nothing from GMF is "official words”.  That difference is what brings some of us newbies here seeking authoritative words from “on high”.

That need doesn’t make us “draftees” to be put or kept in “our place" by a drill sergeant.  Many of us find Groups.io confusing in many ways because we simply do not have the time (or the will) to educate ourselves to “expert” level here.  These are neither complaint nor public confession, merely simple impersonal facts.

No one can change the fact that half the solution to any problem is someone perceiving said “problem” as such in the first place.  By their very nature, “problems” are often situations concerning that which we “don’t know that we don’t know”.  With my limited IT background, I don’t claim to be able to definitively identify a “Bug” from a “feature” that is less than “intuitive”.

So when, inevitably, a newbie like me makes a suggestion out of inexperience with Groups.io, I find those “...long, drawn-out “how to” threads that don’t belong in beta…” to often be of considerable help; whether in clarification of that which is already here, or in FINDING information I didn’t ’t know enough to successfully search for.  

While individual responses may very well NOT “belong in beta”, I have found some of these most useful on occasion and believe they DO “belong” SOMEWHERE.  I still don’t understand how to use a hashtag as J_Catlady suggests, but I do think there should be a “OT” discussion place, thread, whatever works to which such “follow-up” could transfer without the stigma of having somehow erred from the established path.  

Anything that improves comprehension and understand here serves an important purpose until such time as overall documentation and/or help risers to the level of a Groups.io “manual”.   So inasmuch as such would seem desirable and positive in the overall, I see merit in allowing such PUBLIC conversations on/off Main@beta.  

Groups.io can have “structure” without forcing one and all into conforming to a complex and inflexible series of procedure and “topics”.  

Best!

WRB

— 

On Jan 20, 2020, at 7:21 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Mark,

Thanks for your response. It is very helpful, after making a suggestion, to have an idea of which way you are leaning on it. 

<snip>

The main kinds of off-topic posts I see in beta involve “help” questions. Even with the new hashtag restrictions, topics here frequently start with a valid suggestion but then quickly devolve into long, drawn-out “how to” threads that don’t belong in beta. I think that adding a “private” hashtag even to those kinds of threads, once they take off in that kind of direction, could actually cut down on clutter and messsges that don’t belong in beta.

I think a hashtag like #OT would be used very infrequently by group members themselves, and when used, would result in only a single message onlist. Whereas if the hashtag could be used by you to stop topics from going in the wrong direction.

That’s the only case I can make right now. 


On Jan 20, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 04:28 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

It might be helpful to allow beta members to start topics that they only want private replies to, either because they are somewhat off-topic and they don’t want to clutter up the message list with the replies, and/or they want to communicate with others offlist about the subject for some other (non-nefarious) reason, thinking that beta members may be the best-equipped to discuss it with. To that end, I suggest a beta hashtag set to private replies only and usable by non-mods.

My first inclination is to not do this. I thought there was too much off-topic stuff on Beta recently, and I'd like to avoid that going forward. I'd like it to be more focused than it has been recently. If you have a specific example, I could be open to changing my mind. But I think it'd have to be compelling.

Thanks, Mark


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu



moderated Re: New Group Charter #admin

 

Mark,

What should be done now, if anything, about suggestions we've already posted on canny? I noticed you implemented the MF group setting option from there. Should I assume that the rest of my suggestions there have already "registered" with you, or should I/we start repeating them here?

Same question with bugs reported to support for which no acknowledgement was received. I have a couple in my sent folder from long ago and could repost them here.

Thanks.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: non-mod usable beta tag set for private replies only #meta

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 5:51 PM lloyd lehrer <lloydlehrer@...> wrote:
Is there a mods only messaging tool or a way to create unique email grouping addresses within groups.io?  I use a subgroup to message our mod team but is there another way to keep other eyes off a set of messages with a single address to the team?

This is off-topic to the original post, and is more a question for GMF or List_Help.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: non-mod usable beta tag set for private replies only #meta

lloyd lehrer
 

Is there a mods only messaging tool or a way to create unique email grouping addresses within groups.io?  I use a subgroup to message our mod team but is there another way to keep other eyes off a set of messages with a single address to the team?

lloyd lehrer, MANHATTAN BEACH, CA


On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 4:35 PM Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 04:28 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

It might be helpful to allow beta members to start topics that they only want private replies to, either because they are somewhat off-topic and they don’t want to clutter up the message list with the replies, and/or they want to communicate with others offlist about the subject for some other (non-nefarious) reason, thinking that beta members may be the best-equipped to discuss it with. To that end, I suggest a beta hashtag set to private replies only and usable by non-mods.

My first inclination is to not do this. I thought there was too much off-topic stuff on Beta recently, and I'd like to avoid that going forward. I'd like it to be more focused than it has been recently. If you have a specific example, I could be open to changing my mind. But I think it'd have to be compelling.

Thanks, Mark


moderated Help page #bug

KWKloeber
 

Mark

On the Help page menu (below the FAQ) there's a "Back to top" shortcut (see paste below.)   But since it doesn't float it's visible only when you are essentially already at the Top and is hidden when viewing further down on the page.  Probably superfluous, seeing there's the jump arrow?

Also, the instructions to submit a BUG need to be revised in light of now using the #bug hashtag.
.


moderated Re: non-mod usable beta tag set for private replies only #meta

 

Mark,

Thanks for your response. It is very helpful, after making a suggestion, to have an idea of which way you are leaning on it. 

At this point I have no particularly compelling example. The request was motivated by my futile attempt to keep my yahoo query from generating onlist replies. At the time, not knowing that the limited hashtags were on the way, I had a brief thought of asking you to set the topic to private replies only. Some other groups I’m aware of have a specific hashtag #OT that is set to private, and I thought that could cut down on the clutter that occurred last night. I was actually glad that you finally locked the thread.

The main kinds of off-topic posts I see in beta involve “help” questions. Even with the new hashtag restrictions, topics here frequently start with a valid suggestion but then quickly devolve into long, drawn-out “how to” threads that don’t belong in beta. I think that adding a “private” hashtag even to those kinds of threads, once they take off in that kind of direction, could actually cut down on clutter and messsges that don’t belong in beta.

I think a hashtag like #OT would be used very infrequently by group members themselves, and when used, would result in only a single message onlist. Whereas if the hashtag could be used by you to stop topics from going in the wrong direction.

That’s the only case I can make right now. 


On Jan 20, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 04:28 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

It might be helpful to allow beta members to start topics that they only want private replies to, either because they are somewhat off-topic and they don’t want to clutter up the message list with the replies, and/or they want to communicate with others offlist about the subject for some other (non-nefarious) reason, thinking that beta members may be the best-equipped to discuss it with. To that end, I suggest a beta hashtag set to private replies only and usable by non-mods.

My first inclination is to not do this. I thought there was too much off-topic stuff on Beta recently, and I'd like to avoid that going forward. I'd like it to be more focused than it has been recently. If you have a specific example, I could be open to changing my mind. But I think it'd have to be compelling.

Thanks, Mark


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated WIKI page / sidebar layout request #suggestion

KWKloeber
 

Mark, 
The Wiki user sidebar takes up a lot of real estate - maybe unnecessarily so -- especially on a laptop.  Some pages are not text - I just show an example displaying text info that is an image.  Could the layout be improved by adding any/all of the following?
(See my red edits on screenshot) 

* A narrower sidebar (or MOD settable width would be best?)  It would force links (and txt) to be more conservative (as U do on the left menu) or be multi-line.
* Being able to expand the wiki page content frame to full screen (going browser full-screen expands everything, not only the wiki content)
* Being able to hide/unhide/collapse/shrink or slide-right/expand the sidebar - whatever works. (using typical shrink/restore icons.) (initial/default view being MOD settable or a cookie-remembered, etc)
* Just as you have a scoot-to-top icon - adding a jump-to-bottom (needed for long pages to jump to Edit/Save/other options.)

thx
-ken


moderated Re: non-mod usable beta tag set for private replies only #meta

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 04:28 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

It might be helpful to allow beta members to start topics that they only want private replies to, either because they are somewhat off-topic and they don’t want to clutter up the message list with the replies, and/or they want to communicate with others offlist about the subject for some other (non-nefarious) reason, thinking that beta members may be the best-equipped to discuss it with. To that end, I suggest a beta hashtag set to private replies only and usable by non-mods.

My first inclination is to not do this. I thought there was too much off-topic stuff on Beta recently, and I'd like to avoid that going forward. I'd like it to be more focused than it has been recently. If you have a specific example, I could be open to changing my mind. But I think it'd have to be compelling.

Thanks, Mark


moderated non-mod usable beta tag set for private replies only #meta

 

It might be helpful to allow beta members to start topics that they only want private replies to, either because they are somewhat off-topic and they don’t want to clutter up the message list with the replies, and/or they want to communicate with others offlist about the subject for some other (non-nefarious) reason, thinking that beta members may be the best-equipped to discuss it with. To that end, I suggest a beta hashtag set to private replies only and usable by non-mods.


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New Group Charter #admin

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 03:15 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:

Since we now have a recognized #bug hashtag, should we begin to submit bug reports here instead of support@groups.io?

Yes please.

Thanks, Mark


moderated Re: New Group Charter #admin

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 02:21 PM, JohnF wrote:

I see on the hashtag list that #meta and #suggestion refer to the app, even though this is the main non-app beta group.

Whoops. Fixed.

Thanks, Mark


moderated Re: New Group Charter #admin

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 02:21 PM, JohnF wrote:
I see on the hashtag list that #meta and #suggestion refer to the app
Good catch. I completely missed that and assumed they applied to groups.io as a whole - including that "meta" meant suggestions about the beta group.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New Group Charter #admin

Bruce Bowman
 

Since we now have a recognized #bug hashtag, should we begin to submit bug reports here instead of support@groups.io?

Bruce


moderated Re: make "use by mods only" hashtag restriction viewable by non-mods #suggestion

Laurence Marks <marks@...>
 

J_Catlady wrote:
Another idea is to use single-letter codes, with a key at the bottom of the page - M for mod only, L for locked, P for private replies only, etc. But that may not be enough information (e.g. if M, you still don’t know if it’s replies by mods only; if D for duration, yoh don’t know the duration; etc). So another idea is to give non-mods ability to click on each tag to see a detailed page, similar to what mods have but without edit capability.

I'm not sure what form the implementation would take, but if all are visible, this would be a perfect place for Tooltips!

Larry

--
Larry Marks


moderated Re: New Group Charter #admin

 

I see on the hashtag list that #meta and #suggestion refer to the app, even though this is the main non-app beta group.

JohnF


moderated Re: make "use by mods only" hashtag restriction viewable by non-mods #suggestion

Michael Pavan
 

On Jan 20, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Bruce Bowman <@BruceBowman> wrote:

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 03:49 PM, Gerald Boutin wrote:
Duh, the aha moment, this isn't obvious when using email. Double duh - if you're emailing and not online, you don't have a place to look to see if a tag is available.

Tell me what I am missing? (Or did I get it right this time?)
Gerald -- I think you got it right, but am not very clear on what can be done about it.

For what it's worth, when someone sends a non-compliant message via email, the offending post is held in Draft form, and the post-er is sent a notification containing a link to that draft.
This notification could have the list of permitted hashtags, preferably with an explanation of their use, so that email only users do not have to go online.

The link to the draft may go unused if they choose to correct / recompose using their email client.


If the link is followed, at that point the subscriber will be online and have access to the acceptable hashtags.

After being forced to jump through that hoop several times perhaps things will get more intuitive (or perhaps not).


moderated Re: make "use by mods only" hashtag restriction viewable by non-mods #suggestion

 

Another idea is to use single-letter codes, with a key at the bottom of the page - M for mod only, L for locked, P for private replies only, etc. But that may not be enough information (e.g. if M, you still don’t know if it’s replies by mods only; if D for duration, yoh don’t know the duration; etc). So another idea is to give non-mods ability to click on each tag to see a detailed page, similar to what mods have but without edit capability.


On Jan 20, 2020, at 1:26 PM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 03:49 PM, Gerald Boutin wrote:
Duh, the aha moment, this isn't obvious when using email. Double duh - if you're emailing and not online, you don't have a place to look to see if a tag is available.

Tell me what I am missing? (Or did I get it right this time?)
Gerald -- I think you got it right, but am not very clear on what can be done about it.

For what it's worth, when someone sends a non-compliant message via email, the offending post is held in Draft form, and the post-er is sent a notification containing a link to that draft. If the link is followed, at that point the subscriber will be online and have access to the acceptable hashtags.

After being forced to jump through that hoop several times perhaps things will get more intuitive (or perhaps not).

Bruce

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: New Group Charter #admin

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 1:05 PM Chris Jones via Groups.Io <chrisjones12=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 06:07 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
This group is now set so that all new topics are moderated.
Mark; during (roughly) what hours will moderation effort be available? The information is most likely to be of help to those of us not on the Pacific Coast!


Yes, I'm generally on Pacific Time. But even when I'm awake I will not be looking at beta all the time; I'd never get anything done. :-) I do think slowing the conversations down a little bit won't hurt the group and may even be a benefit. 

Thanks,
Mark