Date   

locked Re: First email in thread plus digest

Frances
 

First, a simple question! How do you mute a thread on the website? It is easy to do from the email, but what about from the website?


locked Re: about messages from non-members

Judy F.
 

Mark, since all groups aren’t used as discussion groups, so to speak, I would like for you to keep something in mind.  I moderate a group that is a buying and selling group.

 

1) All messages submitted as ads and they are pended for approve my the moderator.  Once that message is approved and posts on the group, from then on the discussions is between the seller and potential buyer personally.  So the potential buyer will do a reply in the group to the seller to discuss things.  Same thing if they are sending the message through their email program.  At no time, does that conversation appear on the group again. 

2) All members are pended for approval until that member provides specific information to the group name_owner@.....  I then approve or deny that request.   No members can join by sending an email request where they would automatically be approved as a member. 

3) All photos are posted by sellers of items they had submitted an ad for.  They have to provide required information on each photo that is done by posting the photo, click Edit and then adding the information on the two available lines below the photo. 

 

Based on what I’ve described, will groups.io allow all of this to happen without jumping through hoops to perform?

 

One more thing, like I’ve said I have read all of the messages and some things I understand and others sound way to complicated and technical.  Not that they aren’t good ideas, but just too complicated and technical for those of us that aren’t super techs like Shal.  I believe that’s part of the Neo problem now.  Instead of using the philosophy of ‘keep it simple stupid’, they are providing all of these bells and whistles that a lot of the groups don’t need or want and only half work.   So many of the members, moderators and owners of the various sewing/embroidery groups on Yahoo Groups are not computer literate or very little, so hopefully you are aware of this and keep those people in mind.  Same thing with those that are visually impaired.  That was a big issue when Neo was dropped on us.  Those people could no longer navigate the groups  because no one thought about that issue when they were doing their great job of developing this new Neo.  (This was said with tongue in cheek. LOL)

 

There is such a diverse group of people on Yahoo Groups that use the groups for different things, I’m afraid that if they aren’t providing some type of input in this Beta (maybe because they don’t even know about this), that their needs aren’t going to be met.

 

Sorry this was so long.

 

Thanks for all the work you have already done on this new venture.

  

 

Judy Faulkner

SW Florida - USA

 

From: Mark Fletcher [mailto:markf@corp.groups.io]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 4:08 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] about messages from non-members

 

Cherrill,

 

If I add this feature, it will be something you can turn on or off. Here's how it would work (if turned on for your group):

 

A non-member sends a message to your group

It looks like a pending message to you, ie. you'll get a notification that you need to approve or reject it

If you approve it, the person is given an 'instant subscription' to your group and is set to receive only replies to their message

You will be able to see these instant subscriptions in your member list, and can unsubscribe or ban these people

 

A couple of things I haven't figured out yet:

 

There will be some mechanism to convert these instant subscriptions to normal subscriptions, which may very depending on whether the group is restricted or not (ie. requires approval before joining the group)

Does the user have to confirm their subscription or not?

 

Make sense? Please let me know what you think.

 

Thanks,

Mark

 

 

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:

I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

 

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

 

Cherrill

I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.


 

On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

 

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:


> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).

 

I like instant subscriptions.

 

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

 

Thanks,

Mark

 

 


locked Site #changelog

 

Changes to the site today:

There was a bug in message reference parsing, which in some situations could result in incorrect message threading in the archives. It's been fixed.

The text on the invite web page was changed slightly to make it more clear.

Checking for Auto-Submitted field in email headers. If it's set to 'auto-generated' or 'auto-replied', we drop the email.


Mark


locked Re: about messages from non-members

Cherrill <cdjamieson@...>
 

okay thank you
sorry that I don't understand most of the technical stuff, 
Cherrill





On Nov 3, 2014, at 2:23 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Of course.  There will never be a situation where you can't control who's in your group and what gets sent to it.

Thanks,
Mark

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
is this a feature I can turn off the moment its implemented, because I don't want people who are not members to send any emails to my group. 
If they want to be a member, they should join the proper way.

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 2:08 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Cherrill,

If I add this feature, it will be something you can turn on or off. Here's how it would work (if turned on for your group):

A non-member sends a message to your group
It looks like a pending message to you, ie. you'll get a notification that you need to approve or reject it
If you approve it, the person is given an 'instant subscription' to your group and is set to receive only replies to their message
You will be able to see these instant subscriptions in your member list, and can unsubscribe or ban these people

A couple of things I haven't figured out yet:

There will be some mechanism to convert these instant subscriptions to normal subscriptions, which may very depending on whether the group is restricted or not (ie. requires approval before joining the group)
Does the user have to confirm their subscription or not?

Make sense? Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Mark


On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark










locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

Of course.  There will never be a situation where you can't control who's in your group and what gets sent to it.

Thanks,
Mark

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
is this a feature I can turn off the moment its implemented, because I don't want people who are not members to send any emails to my group. 
If they want to be a member, they should join the proper way.

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 2:08 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Cherrill,

If I add this feature, it will be something you can turn on or off. Here's how it would work (if turned on for your group):

A non-member sends a message to your group
It looks like a pending message to you, ie. you'll get a notification that you need to approve or reject it
If you approve it, the person is given an 'instant subscription' to your group and is set to receive only replies to their message
You will be able to see these instant subscriptions in your member list, and can unsubscribe or ban these people

A couple of things I haven't figured out yet:

There will be some mechanism to convert these instant subscriptions to normal subscriptions, which may very depending on whether the group is restricted or not (ie. requires approval before joining the group)
Does the user have to confirm their subscription or not?

Make sense? Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Mark


On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark







locked Re: about messages from non-members

Cherrill <cdjamieson@...>
 

is this a feature I can turn off the moment its implemented, because I don't want people who are not members to send any emails to my group. 
If they want to be a member, they should join the proper way.

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 2:08 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Cherrill,

If I add this feature, it will be something you can turn on or off. Here's how it would work (if turned on for your group):

A non-member sends a message to your group
It looks like a pending message to you, ie. you'll get a notification that you need to approve or reject it
If you approve it, the person is given an 'instant subscription' to your group and is set to receive only replies to their message
You will be able to see these instant subscriptions in your member list, and can unsubscribe or ban these people

A couple of things I haven't figured out yet:

There will be some mechanism to convert these instant subscriptions to normal subscriptions, which may very depending on whether the group is restricted or not (ie. requires approval before joining the group)
Does the user have to confirm their subscription or not?

Make sense? Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Mark


On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark






locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

Cherrill,

If I add this feature, it will be something you can turn on or off. Here's how it would work (if turned on for your group):

A non-member sends a message to your group
It looks like a pending message to you, ie. you'll get a notification that you need to approve or reject it
If you approve it, the person is given an 'instant subscription' to your group and is set to receive only replies to their message
You will be able to see these instant subscriptions in your member list, and can unsubscribe or ban these people

A couple of things I haven't figured out yet:

There will be some mechanism to convert these instant subscriptions to normal subscriptions, which may very depending on whether the group is restricted or not (ie. requires approval before joining the group)
Does the user have to confirm their subscription or not?

Make sense? Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Mark


On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark



locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

Mark,

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io
user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly
subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step
and could receive email from the group without being opted-in.
Except in the case of your address being spoofed, I think it would be fair to conclude that your message itself constitutes opting-in for replies to that message. Otherwise what was the point?

Messages that pass SPF and/or DKIM I think you can accept as non-spoofed. For the rest, you may be right to immediately return an email confirmation message.

On a related note:
"Make the subscribe, unsubscribe, and other email commands reliable"
https://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/5806836

-- Shal


locked Re: about messages from non-members

Cherrill <cdjamieson@...>
 

I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

Mark,

It'll be a nice break from working on the calendar/event code, which is
a bit mind numbing with lots of little fiddly bits.
Heh. Books full of fiddly bits.

A couple of questions: as a moderator, do you want to see these
'temporary subscriptions'?
Yes, I would definitely want them listed (and of course activity logged). Probably in the main Members list so I don't have to remember to check for them separately. Maybe with some kind of indication that they came about this way. And sortable (or searchable) so we can find them; perhaps a unique value for the Delivery column.

And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?
Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).

In a group with Restricted membership the "instant" member would require approval to convert to a regular membership.

-- Shal


locked Re: First email in thread plus digest

 

I realized after I went to bed last night that I was wrong.. It does not currently work close to what your son wants. If set to receive the first message only and on digest, those messages will go to the digest, and not directly out. What your son wants doesn't exist at the moment. I'm concerned that Groups.io is complicated enough as is, so let me ponder if it makes sense to add a new setting.

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 9:51 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
Hi Frances,

It almost exactly works like that right now. When your subscription is set to receive only the first message in a thread, if you later click the follow thread link for that thread, any/all missed messages in that thread are sent to you, individually, at that time, so you don't miss any of the conversation. After that, if you've checked the digest checkbox, any additional messages in that thread are sent as a nightly digest (or after 25 messages occur, whichever comes first).

I had not thought about it, but maybe I should change the behavior when you first click the follow thread link. If you're on digest, maybe you shouldn't get the batch of messages at that point, and they should be digested, as in your son's original suggestion. What do you think? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:
My son who boycotts our family Yahoogroups suggests this:
He would like to be able to set up preferences so that he receives the first post in any thread to the groups he subscribes to - automatically and right away. After that any responses to that thread would be digested for delivery once a day.
He finds that he feels obliged to silence his Blackberry if there is too much traffic especially while at work.
Getting the digest would give him the option of going to the website if he wishes.

Frances


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

Mute This Thread: https://groups.io/mt/6735?uid=3
Change Your Subscription: https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/editsub?uid=3
Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/leave
Group Home: https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta
Contact Group Owner: beta+owner@groups.io
Terms of Service: https://groups.io/static/tos
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-




locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

I really like this idea. I don't think it'll be difficult, because it's just like a user who is set to replies only. Let me spec something up. It'll be a nice break from working on the calendar/event code, which is a bit mind numbing with lots of little fiddly bits.

A couple of questions: as a moderator, do you want to see these 'temporary subscriptions'? And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Thanks,
Mark


On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Chris Leong <walkraft@...> wrote:

That does seem like a common use case. If the workflow around this could be simplified, then it could be group for advice groups.



locked Re: about using email-commands

 

I was not aware of the Auto-Submitted header. I'll add code to drop any message received containing that field set to either 'auto-generated' or 'auto-replied'. Back in the ONElist days, I hard-coded a list of subject lines to look for from autoresponders. I don't have that now (no recent examples), but I will do something similar when it comes up.

I'm also hesitant to make the email commands any more difficult. It's hard enough for people to opt-in to something they want just by replying. 

Thanks,
Mark


On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 1:23 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:
Ronaldo,

> Could you make it so that people would need a slightly modified reply
> to confirm they want to be a member or to approve a moderated message?

If the addressee's email service follows RFC3834 it would be possible to distinguish an auto response from a manual one. In particular there is an Auto-Submitted field which the responder SHOULD include the header of the response.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3834

That may need some thought in regard to Invitations, as those will be sent at times to email services with unknown conformance to standards. But for the major services I'd rather not unnecessarily make it any harder for the invitee than a simple reply.

And in the case of notifications to moderators, I _really_ don't want it made any more complicated than reply and send. Here some responsibility can be put on the moderator not to choose and configure his/her email service so as to avoid auto-response problems.

-- Shal



-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

Mute This Thread: https://groups.io/mt/6628?uid=3
Change Your Subscription: https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/editsub?uid=3
Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/leave
Group Home: https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta
Contact Group Owner: beta+owner@groups.io
Terms of Service: https://groups.io/static/tos
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-



locked Re: First email in thread plus digest

 

Hi Frances,

It almost exactly works like that right now. When your subscription is set to receive only the first message in a thread, if you later click the follow thread link for that thread, any/all missed messages in that thread are sent to you, individually, at that time, so you don't miss any of the conversation. After that, if you've checked the digest checkbox, any additional messages in that thread are sent as a nightly digest (or after 25 messages occur, whichever comes first).

I had not thought about it, but maybe I should change the behavior when you first click the follow thread link. If you're on digest, maybe you shouldn't get the batch of messages at that point, and they should be digested, as in your son's original suggestion. What do you think? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:
My son who boycotts our family Yahoogroups suggests this:
He would like to be able to set up preferences so that he receives the first post in any thread to the groups he subscribes to - automatically and right away. After that any responses to that thread would be digested for delivery once a day.
He finds that he feels obliged to silence his Blackberry if there is too much traffic especially while at work.
Getting the digest would give him the option of going to the website if he wishes.

Frances


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

Mute This Thread: https://groups.io/mt/6735?uid=3
Change Your Subscription: https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/editsub?uid=3
Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta/leave
Group Home: https://groups.io/org/groupsio/beta
Contact Group Owner: beta+owner@groups.io
Terms of Service: https://groups.io/static/tos
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-



locked Re: Roadmap

 

Chris,

Although initially, a service that utilises private URLs might be sufficient.
Like Flickr's Guest Pass? Yes, that could work.

Then the trick would be to let the "integration" display the referenced photo(s) in a natural way for the members, rather than them having to click through to the photo sharing site. A large step better than putting private URLs in a Links list.

-- Shal


locked Re: Roadmap

 

Good point. Although initially, a service that utilises private URLs might be sufficient. It depends heavily on the nature of the groups though.


locked Re: Roadmap

 

Chris,

Photos/Wiki being external is less of a pain than other features because
people will most often just want to view the content and hence don't
need to log in.
That depends strongly on the nature of the group and its members. In many cases access control is a key component of using the feature - just as with the message archives.
People don't necessarily want to share their photos with the world, or their comments on those photos.

-- Shal


locked Re: Roadmap

 

I think when deciding what features to add that it might be worth considering inconvenient it will be for people to emulate those features if you don't provide them.

For most of those features, the disadvantages are that you need to make an extra click and that you need to log in. One way to make external tools easier to use would be to allow people to add extra links in the sidebar.

Photos/Wiki being external is less of a pain than other features because people will most often just want to view the content and hence don't need to log in. However, with polls, people will typically be responding.

With some of these features, you may be able to integrate in a third party tool, rather than writing it yourself. Since this would be so much quicker, these integrations might deserve a higher priority.


locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

That does seem like a common use case. If the workflow around this could be simplified, then it could be group for advice groups.