Date   

moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

Dave Wade
 

Duane,

One would hope so except It’s the UK equivalent of Ma Bell so its history is that it was the national government telephony provider. As such it created the rules as steps to prevent other competing.

I believe it sees its dominant position and breaking the rules as a way to mess with (foo bar) the competition. It has a history of behaving badly e.g.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13015194

 

its e-mail system is a total mess having originally been outsourced Yahoo and now the load is split between Yahoo and a German (I think) provider and frequently goes astray:-

 

https://home.bt.com/pages/email/index.html#targetText=We're%20about%20to%20move,make%20sure%20you're%20ready.

 

Much of the support based in India. A quick google on “BT Indian call centre” will show the problems people have…

… I suspect you have as much chance of getting it fixed as you have of getting Schrodinger’s cat to the moon dead and alive….

 

Dave

G4UGM

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of Duane
Sent: 20 September 2019 11:21
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

 

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 04:58 AM, Dave Wade wrote:

it’s the biggest UK mail provider, and as far as I can tell it has around 10 million customers

I would think a provider of that size would follow the RFCs.

Duane


moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

Duane
 

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 04:58 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
it’s the biggest UK mail provider, and as far as I can tell it has around 10 million customers
I would think a provider of that size would follow the RFCs.

Duane


moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

Dave Wade
 

Chris,

 

Yes it’s a single UK provider, however it’s the biggest UK mail provider, and as far as I can tell it has around 10 million customers….

 

Dave

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Jones via Groups.Io
Sent: 20 September 2019 09:48
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

 

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 07:41 AM, Peter Martinez wrote:

So lets switch from a + to a dot.

I was involved in some of the original investigation into this phenomenon, but I genuinely believe that changing the format of Groups.io email addresses is not the way to go, at least for the moment.

While it would probably be easy for Mark to implement any such change, that change would impact on any / all Groups.io Subscribers who have or may have the current address format in their contacts lists, and I do not see that as acceptable unless it really cannot be avoided, and in my view it is far too early so say that such a change is unavoidable. Furthermore, such a change would (IMHO) be a violation of the Principle of Least Astonishment.

Having said that, although the problem is not one of Mark's creation he might be better placed than any one of us to tackle Synchronoss with the aim of getting that organisation to ensure that their traffic - handling is compliant with the agreed standard.

To continue the motoring analogy, driving around the pothole is all very well as a short - term fix, but does nothing to address the fact that the pothole shouldn't be there is the first place. Circumvent the pothole and before long there will be a second pothole to navigate, and then a third and so on. In other words an unaddressed problem is more likely to spread; it certainly won't repair itself.

What happens when the next service - provider non - compliance arises? Find another work - around?

Mark; if by any chance you are willing to tackle BT / Synchronoss about this incorrect handling of traffic please let us know and one of us can post the exact details of when this problem arises and when it does not, because the current understanding is that it affects end users who are customers of a single (UK) Mail Service Provider, but even then under a single set of circumstances, albeit a very common set.

As Peter has noted previously there is reason to believe (hope!) that some details are working their way through to that MSP (BT) but with no certainty of a satisfactory outcome.

Chris


moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 07:41 AM, Peter Martinez wrote:
So lets switch from a + to a dot.
I was involved in some of the original investigation into this phenomenon, but I genuinely believe that changing the format of Groups.io email addresses is not the way to go, at least for the moment.

While it would probably be easy for Mark to implement any such change, that change would impact on any / all Groups.io Subscribers who have or may have the current address format in their contacts lists, and I do not see that as acceptable unless it really cannot be avoided, and in my view it is far too early so say that such a change is unavoidable. Furthermore, such a change would (IMHO) be a violation of the Principle of Least Astonishment.

Having said that, although the problem is not one of Mark's creation he might be better placed than any one of us to tackle Synchronoss with the aim of getting that organisation to ensure that their traffic - handling is compliant with the agreed standard.

To continue the motoring analogy, driving around the pothole is all very well as a short - term fix, but does nothing to address the fact that the pothole shouldn't be there is the first place. Circumvent the pothole and before long there will be a second pothole to navigate, and then a third and so on. In other words an unaddressed problem is more likely to spread; it certainly won't repair itself.

What happens when the next service - provider non - compliance arises? Find another work - around?

Mark; if by any chance you are willing to tackle BT / Synchronoss about this incorrect handling of traffic please let us know and one of us can post the exact details of when this problem arises and when it does not, because the current understanding is that it affects end users who are customers of a single (UK) Mail Service Provider, but even then under a single set of circumstances, albeit a very common set.

As Peter has noted previously there is reason to believe (hope!) that some details are working their way through to that MSP (BT) but with no certainty of a satisfactory outcome.

Chris


moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

Peter Martinez <Peter.Martinez@...>
 

Duane:

Dave says that a dot is safe because dots are used by everybody and they ARE safe - I have one in my own email address. We know that + CAN be unsafe because we found a situation where it IS unsafe. So lets switch from a + to a dot.

The buggy mailserver that we have found at btinternet is supplied and operated by Synchronoss Inc. in the U.S.A, so I think there may be many more of them around the world.

If you see a hole in the highway ahead, you drive round it so you don't break a wheel. You don't drive straight into the hole and risk breaking a wheel just because the regulations say that the highway department must keep the highway free of holes.

regards
Peter


moderated Re: Feature Request: Referring new people to Groups.io

Drew
 

When I need to see something in groups.io as a non-subscriber or non-logged-in user would view it I open an incognito window in my browser and type in groups.io

For Firefox the shortcut is Ctrl+Shift+P
I believe Chrome was Ctrl+Shift+N

Not sure for other browsers but they will have something similar. Just search for incognito or privacy browsing for your particular browser.


Drew

On 09/19/19 15:34, Sharon Villines via Groups.Io wrote:
This morning, I tried to respond to a request for the best email discussion group provider with the address of Groups.io. It lead to much frustration. Every time I tried to go to a general page, I was reverted to my own list of groups. Even with a Google search the only page I could access was my own list of groups. I needed a link that would give them a description and list of features. This was a referral to a list of several hundred people each of whom probably has connections to at least three other Yahoo or Google groups.
Somehow I finally found the features page, but it took work.
Clicking on the logo on my list of groups would normally go to a home page with links to a home page. But the logo is also a link that returns me to my list of groups.
I think this is a major problem in the area of referring people who are likely to start new groups.
Sharon
----
Sharon Villines
TakomaDC@Groups.io
"Neighbors Talking to Neighbors”
Takoma Park DC and MD


moderated Re: Feature Request: Referring new people to Groups.io

 

Sharon,


I needed a link that would give them a description and list of features.

Maybe ignore my prior reply.

In the bottom bar of every page is a link to the Features page (https://groups.io/static/features). Which may be more exactly what you wanted.

Shal


moderated Re: Feature Request: Referring new people to Groups.io

 

Sharon,


Every time I tried to go to a general page, I was reverted to my own list of groups. ... I needed a link that would give them a description and list of features.

It may have seemed confusing to you, but the general Groups.io URL (https://groups.io/) shows the introductory page you want to someone not logged in:

image.png

So the key to seeing what you're sending is to log out, or use a second browser which isn't logged in

I think this is a major problem in the area of referring people who are likely to start new groups.

It isn't a problem for the people receiving the referral (who after all, are not likely to be logged in yet), but I can see where it is a confusion for those trying to give a referral.

Perhaps there should be another URL for that page (an alias, /intro maybe?) which displays the same whether logged in or not. It could even have its own button on the left just like the others (/feed, /groups, /topics, etc.). But I don't think it needs to be remembered as the default home page for the user, unlike the others.

Shal


moderated Re: Feature Request: Referring new people to Groups.io

 

The issue of which URL you're taken to vs. which URL you type in is a general problem in groups.io. I discovered only recently that of the URL's I had posted in my group as referrals to other cats groups, about half of them were taking non-members of those groups to the wrong place. I don't remember details. I just remember trying over and over again to get it to take me the right place, but every type I typed in a URL, it changed on me. The naming conventions (if that's the right term) seem weird.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Feature Request: Referring new people to Groups.io

Sharon Villines
 

This morning, I tried to respond to a request for the best email discussion group provider with the address of Groups.io. It lead to much frustration. Every time I tried to go to a general page, I was reverted to my own list of groups. Even with a Google search the only page I could access was my own list of groups. I needed a link that would give them a description and list of features. This was a referral to a list of several hundred people each of whom probably has connections to at least three other Yahoo or Google groups.

Somehow I finally found the features page, but it took work.

Clicking on the logo on my list of groups would normally go to a home page with links to a home page. But the logo is also a link that returns me to my list of groups.

I think this is a major problem in the area of referring people who are likely to start new groups.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines
TakomaDC@Groups.io
"Neighbors Talking to Neighbors”
Takoma Park DC and MD


moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

 

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 06:09 AM, Peter Martinez wrote:
the type of mailserver with this bug could appear in other locations and I don't think it is safe to continue using a + in the email command.
Sounds like that's going to extremes. Anything bad can happen at any time. Doesn't mean you avoid doing everything because it's not safe.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

Duane
 

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 01:11 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
I folks are violating RFC2821 then they are not treating them the same. However, I think only “.” is safe.
Exactly.  If they're not following the standard for one, what's to say they'll follow the standard for others?  Why do you think that "." is safe?  Since it's part of the same standard, it may not be safe on some services.  It's up to the email services to follow standards so problems like this don't occur.  It shouldn't require a web site (or other service) to "work around" the problem they've created.

Duane


moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

Dave Wade
 

Duane,

I folks are violating RFC2821 then they are not treating them the same. However, I think only “.” is safe..

Dave

 

From: main@beta.groups.io <main@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of Duane
Sent: 19 September 2019 19:08
To: main@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

 

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 08:09 AM, Peter Martinez wrote:

I don't think it is safe to continue using a + in the email command

If that's true, then it's not "safe" to use any punctuation in the local part.  Per RFC 2821, they should all be treated the same.

Duane


moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

Duane
 

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 08:09 AM, Peter Martinez wrote:
I don't think it is safe to continue using a + in the email command
If that's true, then it's not "safe" to use any punctuation in the local part.  Per RFC 2821, they should all be treated the same.

Duane


moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

Peter Martinez <Peter.Martinez@...>
 

Lena:
Its true that we have only found one mailserver with this bug so far, but the type of mailserver with this bug could appear in other locations and I don't think it is safe to continue using a + in the email command.
regards
Peter


moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

Peter Martinez <Peter.Martinez@...>
 

Lena:

This practice (of stripping the localpart after a +) may not be just happening at the single mailserver that we have found (synchronoss.net). .It may be a single TYPE of mailserver equipment or software from a single hardware or software supplier that could be fitted in many places. At the least I would ask groups.io to consider adding an alternative email command format (dot in place of +) so that groups that experience this problem can work around it.

regards
Peter


moderated Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group

 

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 03:20 PM, Peter Martinez wrote:


This practice by some intermediate hosts in the internet
Not some hosts (plural), but single broken mailserver used by a part of BT users.


moderated Re: Allow Group Users to Donate towards the premium upgrade directly to Groups.io #suggestion

Eric di Domenico
 

Scott, I would like the users of my group to be able to pay Groups.io directly. I don't want to accept donations because I suspect the donations would greatly surpass the premium cost for a year. If they could just keep "upping" the subscription we would have years of subscription paid up without me having to manage the finances of it.

Eric


moderated Re: Allow Group Users to Donate towards the premium upgrade directly to Groups.io #suggestion

Scott Logan
 

In my group, a lot of users are willing to pay for the Premium upgrade.
So far, I paid for the year, several others have offered to participate
but I don't want to start collecting money from people and having to
manage an account for paying up the upgrade.

If users could donate directly towards the upgrade to Groups.io we would
probably have several years of upgrade paid up already.
As Gerald mentioned, this is available, but groups.io (understandably) charges a small fee to cover their credit card processing cost (and you have to have a stripe account).

When I recently moved a large group over from YG, I simply paid for the upgraded plan myself. After a bit, and having a couple of members mention it, I suggested that while not necessary, anyone who felt the need, could send me a donation via PayPal or mail a check. A little hassle but I did have a couple who did so. As long as the PayPal transfer is specified as sending to a friend, there is no charge.

Scott


moderated Re: Allow Group Users to Donate towards the premium upgrade directly to Groups.io #suggestion

Eric di Domenico
 

Hi Gerald, that doesn't work the same way. With the current Donation feature I would have to have an account and manage money.

I don't want to manage money, I want Groups.io to get all the money!

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