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moderated Re: Remember last message read #suggestion

 

Bruce,

Mark -- Is the app going to be only a customized mail client that only bypasses the problems of SMTP email delivery and read-tracking? Is it going to REPLACE normal email delivery?

I think it is more like a replacement for the mobile web experience; one that can push notifications to your device's notification system.

I don't see how we can track anything if people are allowed to switch back and forth.

Same as today: what happens to messages delivered to your email service is completely unknown to Groups.io.

By presenting three different (and largely incompatible) user interfaces I am concerned we could end up with a spaghetti-bowl of use cases that will be very difficult to untangle.

Yup.

[in GMF, or from support] "When you say that you posted that message on your mobile device, did you mean through your email app, your browser app, or the Groups.io app?" Hopefully though the latter two won't be "largely incompatible" apart from features (like notifications) which the web browser experience doesn't support.
Shal


moderated Re: Remember last message read #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

Mark -- Is the app going to be only a customized mail client that only bypasses the problems of SMTP email delivery and read-tracking? Is it going to REPLACE normal email delivery? I don't see how we can track anything if people are allowed to switch back and forth.

Is it going to provide all of the other web functionality, too?

At this time I am totally unclear on what the app is supposed to do...and not do. By presenting three different (and largely incompatible) user interfaces I am concerned we could end up with a spaghetti-bowl of use cases that will be very difficult to untangle.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Remember last message read #suggestion

 

Mark,


Comprehensive Way:

We basically re-invent the inbox.

Two further thoughts from sleeping on it. Nightmares perhaps. Folder management and the meaning of Delete.

The original Gmail view of the Inbox was an an ever-growing stash of messages w/o folders or delete. They believe(d) that search is a better way to find things than keeping a tidy inbox and folder tree. Eventually they relented to user expectations and label/folder duality ensued. So I'm fairly convinced that giving users a personal inbox will bring on the expectation of having folders to stash things in. I'm not sure if that expectation can or even should be resisted.

The other part of keeping a tidy Inbox is Delete (Gmail eventually relented on this too). This one I think is far more likely to cause trouble. Not that it is a lot of work to implement, but that it has a far different impact in one's Inbox than it does in a group's Messages archive. It was rare, but there were occasional instances (in Yahoo Groups) where a newly appointed moderator would "catch up" on the group's messages, deleting them as they read them. Oops. It was a conceptual matter of mistaking the group's Messages for a personal Inbox. Having personal Inboxes within the Groups.io interface breaks the very strong distinction between personal content and group content in a way that might lead to mistakes of that sort. Everywhere the help or user manual (or GMF) talks about deleting a message there would have to be clarification about where you are deleting it from. Whereas now there's an inherent clarity to the concept that everything on site is group content.

That last is enough for me to think it may be better to take the Easy Way out.

Shal


moderated Re: Remember last message read #suggestion

Noel Leaver
 

> Thoughts? Is there another path I haven't thought of?

Since the comprehensive solution involves providing much of an email system, is there a way of front-ending it with a dedicated and private email system you host?

Noel



moderated Re: Remember last message read #suggestion

 

Mark,


Thoughts?

Among the questions I see with the Comprehensive Way is how to count when a message is read, particularly in the case of Expanded view. But even for Topics, do you count all the replies as read when one opens the topic? Maybe it would be possible within those views to track whether each message body was ever displayed, but that seems real finicky, at least on the web interface.


We basically re-invent the inbox. Give everyone a groups.io email inbox, but only for group email

Hmm. I was going to suggest that it replace https://groups.io/topics but it can't without providing another way to find and unmute muted topics. Maybe that's solved by adding Muted to the Tools/Filter drop-down in the group's Messages/Topics lists. Or maybe one simply has both /topics and /inbox (but that's probably confusing too).


One way of doing that would be to add a second set of message delivery options, to control what's delivered to your groups.io inbox.

That's probably not so bad if you simply create a new section, almost duplicating the Email Delivery section. Call it Web Delivery perhaps. In it you could (I think) leave out the Plain Digest choice. I was thinking that the Advanced Preferences (except for Max Attachment Size) would apply to both Email and Web Inbox, but maybe that would be too limiting for some.

You realize of course that once you do this people will want to be able to log in using their Groups.io Inbox rather than an external email address. A use for the long-fallowed User Name perhaps, promoting it to the Account section of the Login tab? But that's a whole other topic I suppose.

Shal


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

 

Hahahahaha!


On Sep 3, 2019, at 9:33 PM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:

On 9/3/2019 21:27, J_Catlady wrote:
Yeah, that fixes it. Here's the limerick:

My haiku you're bent on critiquing,
But your own poem's the one that needs tweaking.
Your syllable counts
Lack the proper amounts.
So be careful on that which you're speaking.
--
J

There once was a man from St. Bees
Who was stung in the arm by a wasp
When asked, "Does it hurt."
He replied, "No it doesn't."
"I'm so glad it wasn't a hornet."

------

There once was a man from Berdoo
Who's limericks would end at line two.

There once was a man from Verdun.

And then there is the limerick about Nero.

Best,

Glenn

--
We must work to make the Democratic Party the Marketplace of Ideas not the Marketplace of Favors.

Virus-free. www.avast.com

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

Glenn Glazer
 

On 9/3/2019 21:27, J_Catlady wrote:
Yeah, that fixes it. Here's the limerick:

My haiku you're bent on critiquing,
But your own poem's the one that needs tweaking.
Your syllable counts
Lack the proper amounts.
So be careful on that which you're speaking.
--
J

There once was a man from St. Bees
Who was stung in the arm by a wasp
When asked, "Does it hurt."
He replied, "No it doesn't."
"I'm so glad it wasn't a hornet."

------

There once was a man from Berdoo
Who's limericks would end at line two.

There once was a man from Verdun.

And then there is the limerick about Nero.

Best,

Glenn

--
We must work to make the Democratic Party the Marketplace of Ideas not the Marketplace of Favors.

Virus-free. www.avast.com


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

 

Yeah, that fixes it. Here's the limerick:

My haiku you're bent on critiquing,
But your own poem's the one that needs tweaking.
Your syllable counts
Lack the proper amounts.
So be careful on that which you're speaking.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

 

Glenn,


That's correct, Shal. The other legit answer is to count neither end. It sometimes depends on the nature of the fence.

Yup. I just couldn't figure out a way to express the ambiguity in the haiku. Speaking of which...

J's private lim'rick
says my count is wrong. Oh... oops:
Lines out of order.

A fencepost error:
One end and not the other -
miscount the number.

Shal


moderated Re: Remember last message read #suggestion

 

On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 7:33 PM D R Stinson <dano@...> wrote:

Would either message be affected by reading messages from two or three different machines? I primarily use a desktop box, but occasionally use a laptop or an Android. Just thought I'd ask.

No, we'd remember regardless of how/when you accessed things. This is better than trying to rely on the browser to change the color of links of messages you've visited, as that doesn't apply across machines.

Thanks,
Mark 


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

Glenn Glazer
 

On 9/3/2019 18:22, J_Catlady wrote:
Wow, you guys won't give me any poetic license! That's what I meant. :) Here's a simple correction for the literal-minded:

Programming is not given to poetic license.

Best,

Glenn

--
We must work to make the Democratic Party the Marketplace of Ideas not the Marketplace of Favors.

Virus-free. www.avast.com


moderated Re: Remember last message read #suggestion

 

This is a very apropos question given the point of
development of the app. I need to flesh this out this
week, and I could definitely use y'all's feedback.
Mark -
Would either message be affected by reading messages from two or three different machines? I primarily use a desktop box, but occasionally use a laptop or an Android. Just thought I'd ask.

Dano


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

 

Wow, you guys won't give me any poetic license! That's what I meant. :) Here's a simple correction for the literal-minded:

A fencepost error:
Mistaking 10 boundaries
For 9 parts within.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Remember last message read #suggestion

 

On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 4:30 PM Eric di Domenico <eric@...> wrote:
I would like a visual indicator of which messages are new since the last time I visited the group website.

This is a very apropos question given the point of development of the app. I need to flesh this out this week, and I could definitely use y'all's feedback. So, here we go.

- A visual indicator would require us to remember and track what messages you've read. 
- A desired feature of the app would be to be notified when there are new messages, which also requires us knowing which messages you've read.
- Also, some email providers (cough... charter.net... cough... cox.net... cough... comcast.net) like to delay or block messages from us at random times. For unknown reasons.
- Also, HTML digests are often not handled consistently or nicely.

I see two ways of addressing some/all of the above. The easy way and the comprehensive way.

Easy Way:

We track a high water message number per subscription. That's the most recent message you've seen in each group. Going to the message archives instantly sets this high water number to the most recent message. This lets us send out notifications when new messages come in and display topics in bold when there are new messages. You would see these bolded topics/messages when viewing the archives on a group-by-group basis (ie https://groups.io/g/beta/topics). It does not let you mark some messages as unread. It does not let you read some topics and keep others as unread. It does nothing about inconsistent displaying of digests. It's easy to implement and fairly straightforward for users to understand (I think).

Comprehensive Way:

We basically re-invent the inbox. Give everyone a groups.io email inbox, but only for group email. One way of doing that would be to add a second set of message delivery options, to control what's delivered to your groups.io inbox. As an example, you could set your existing email delivery setting to no mail, and your new groups.io inbox delivery setting to 'single' or 'digest'. Then only read your messages in your new groups.io inbox on the web or in the app. There would be a new part of the website, which would be your inbox. We could display digests really nicely. This is the most flexible, but also the most complicated solution (both technically and to understand by users, I think).

Thoughts? Is there another path I haven't thought of?

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

KWKloeber
 

Mark 

What prefs are under Account? 
I do see “adv email settings

However There are “preferences” (advanced)  under “Subscription”. 
Why not be consistent?

 What (uggggh) Subscription is, is
“Your preferences for THIS group”.  
How to best convey that in one word?  Dunno. 


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

Glenn Glazer
 

On 9/3/2019 17:01, Shal Farley wrote:
J,


A fencepost error:
Mistaking a boundary
For what lies within.

Nice, but wrong in the context of computer programming (and fence building).

        A fencepost error:
        Miscount the number,
        One end and not the other.
Shal

That's correct, Shal. The other legit answer is to count neither end. It sometimes depends on the nature of the fence.

Best,

Glenn

--
We must work to make the Democratic Party the Marketplace of Ideas not the Marketplace of Favors.

Virus-free. www.avast.com


moderated Re: Remember last message read #suggestion

Duane
 

This has been requested many times before.  It was added to the TODO list almost 5 years ago, https://trello.com/c/m1HaX8DC/18-keep-track-of-read-unread-messages-on-the-website.  At present, the only way to keep track is to let your browser tell you if you've read a message or not by changing the link color.

Duane


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

 

J,


A fencepost error:
Mistaking a boundary
For what lies within.

Nice, but wrong in the context of computer programming (and fence building).

        A fencepost error:
        Miscount the number,
        One end and not the other.
Shal


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

 

On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 03:08 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
It's okay as long as he doesn't make a fence post error.
A fencepost error:
Mistaking a boundary
For what lies within.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Remember last message read #suggestion

Eric di Domenico
 

I would like a visual indicator of which messages are new since the last time I visited the group website.

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