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locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

KWKloeber
 

Post v message

Don't care -- Consistency is my point. - which keeps getting conflated with arguments over one personal preference versus another.
That said, I agree POST is more better.


moderated Re: "Emailed Files" folder

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 08:09 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
I didn't mean to imply that it would be any less capable than the existing page, when seen by moderators.
Shal -- I didn't take it that way. I guess to fully explain myself I should start at the beginning.

There have been many complaints over time about sig-line images and so on proliferating in the Emailed Photos folder. In an attempt to address this, on or around March 22 of this year Mark decided to no longer index and display images less than 100 pixels in either dimension in that folder. See the link to that thread in my previous message.

Those little images are still proliferating, and still counting against quota. So the change only addressed half the problem.

If your goal as a group Owner is to get rid of them rather than just hide them, there are two ways remaining to do that:

1) Look them up via the "View Attachments" page (which serves as an alternate index to the affected messages*), or
2) Painstakingly search through all the messages and edit them out, one by one.

If we take away the "View Attachments" page (which includes photos), replacing it with "Emailed Files" (which presumably would not), there will be no way to do #1 above. That's why I remain reluctant to see it go away.

As for how much of a problem this really is, I don't know. Depends on how many of those little images your group receives, I guess.

Regards,
Bruce

*Conveniently sorted by file size


moderated Re: maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages

 

J,

Shal, thanks but I don't know what you're talking about. LOL.
Sorry about that. But what's important is that Mark will (hopefully).

Short version: Groups.io's web view seems to be ignoring some of the HTML parameters that tell it how much space to put between paragraphs (zero, in your limerick).

It is probably more of a limitation than a bug - I suspect it results from a deliberate "sanitizing" of the HTML. But perhaps it can be corrected for this problem.

Shal


moderated Re: "Emailed Files" folder

 

Bruce,

The main thing that's keeping me from going there is that the "View
attachments" page is currently the only means available to delete
little sig line images and so on that may be accumulating behind the
scenes
I didn't mean to imply that it would be any less capable than the existing page, when seen by moderators.

That would be one difference with an Emailed Files folder - it would be visible to members (if files are at all), but its edit controls should be governed by the same rules as messages regarding moderator versus member.

Shal


moderated Re: maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages

 

Shal, thanks but I don't know what you're talking about. LOL.

Yeah, I saw that the emailed version of the message came out fine. The problem is that people often compose long, detailed messages in my group, and many of them do it in Word and then copy and paste. Any invisible formatting characters that work their way into their Word doc are just that: invisible. So I often find myself going in and removing extra line spacing and other things from their posts.

The same applies to their auto-sigs. If the person copies the text for their auto-sig from a document they've created (which is common in our group, because auto-sigs carry a lot of medical information about the cat and often people copy it from some other place), it's a mess. Sometimes I've gone in and used the "remove formatting" tool on the sig. Maybe that's possible with their messages ("posts") too, I'm now thinking. But it would be nice if this did not have to be done.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages

 

J,

i make this request not only because of my ill-fated limerick this morning, which I copy/pasted from a Word doc, and which appeared here with extra line spaces,

Interesting. I see what you mean on the web interface, but in Thunderbird and in Gmail's web interface it came out as you probably expected:


So I think this has something to do with the paragraph style formatting. In particular, the second and third lines are represented in the HTML as one paragraph with a line break between them; whereas the first, fourth and fifth lines are separate paragraphs. Groups.io is displaying the four paragraphs of your limerick with some spacing between.

If the paragraph formatting in your word document has no spacing above or below you may have separate paragraphs that visually appear the same as line breaks.

Shal


moderated Re: "Emailed Files" folder

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 04:03 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
As for whether this should actually replace the functionality
currently found at https://groups.io/g/GROUPNAME/attachments, I
haven't decided on that yet.
I would say "yes", with the possibility of leaving the link behind on the Upgrade/Billing page, updated to point to this new folder.
The main thing that's keeping me from going there is that the "View attachments" page is currently the only means available to delete little sig line images and so on that may be accumulating behind the scenes (Ref: https://beta.groups.io/g/main/topic/30721218#20482).

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 05:06 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
i make this request not only because of my ill-fated limerick this morning, which I copy/pasted from a Word doc, and which appeared here with extra line spaces, but because the problem occurs frequently in my group as well: when someone copy/pastes a Word doc into a message, the formatting is often all screwed up, including, but not necessarily limited to, the addition of extra line (or paragraph) breaks. I don't know if anything can be done about this, but will remain hopeful.
--
I would like to offer this as an add-on for pasting improvements needed. Please allow pasting an image into a "post" online.
 
--
Gerald


moderated maintain Word formatting when copy-pasting documents into messages

 

i make this request not only because of my ill-fated limerick this morning, which I copy/pasted from a Word doc, and which appeared here with extra line spaces, but because the problem occurs frequently in my group as well: when someone copy/pastes a Word doc into a message, the formatting is often all screwed up, including, but not necessarily limited to, the addition of extra line (or paragraph) breaks. I don't know if anything can be done about this, but will remain hopeful.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Emailed Files" folder

 

Bruce,

As for whether this should actually replace the functionality
currently found at https://groups.io/g/GROUPNAME/attachments, I
haven't decided on that yet.
I would say "yes", with the possibility of leaving the link behind on the Upgrade/Billing page, updated to point to this new folder.

Shal


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

 

darn formatting came out all wrong! :-(

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

 

According to Marv, let’s use “post”

And make the word “message” a ghost.
When shooting the breeze,

Don’t “message me” please

Or screen real estate will be toast.


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

Marv Waschke
 

Memory, storage, processor cycles, and bandwidth are all cheaper than dirt compared to the last century. But screen real estate in these days of pocket computers, is still precious. "Post" is shorter than "Message". Also "post" is conventionally acceptable as verb, but some fastidious people object to "message" as a verb. For these reasons, I would scrub "message" and consistently replace it with "post." On the other hand, if I were managing groups.io development, I probably tell the team to work on more important things, like the app, where screen real estate is critical.
Best, Marv


moderated "Emailed Files" folder

Bruce Bowman
 

It would be handy to have a system-created "Emailed Files" folder from which non-image message attachments can be more readily examined.

I envision the controls to be similar to what's available in the existing "Emailed Photos" folder. As with "Emailed Photos," file attachments could be deleted from this folder without generating a notification. 

This has been discussed tangentially before, but as best I can tell never presented as a proposal. As for whether this should actually replace the functionality currently found at https://groups.io/g/GROUPNAME/attachments, I haven't decided on that yet.

Thanks,
Bruce


moderated Re: #hashtags

 

Technotronic Dimensions,

As for the date being a factor in weather a topic is "stale" or not, I
as a group owner dont believe its relevent,
Recall that this test is only applied to messages posted by email that lack the customary "In-Reply-To:" or "References:" header field. That should be a minority case in replies posted by email as most email user interfaces will include one or the other if the person uses the Reply function.

Lacking those fields is an indicator that the person likely composed the email as a new message, not a reply. So the time limits are intended to prevent the accidental inclusion of a new message with common Subject text into a on old Topic. For example, a new member might post a message with a non-specific Subject like "Hello". It would make no sense to link that new message to a similar incident years ago.

Shal


moderated Re: #hashtags

Technotronic Dimensions
 

Thanks for your hard work Chris in your evaluation and testing, I dont see anything being left out and you built on my original
findings quite more than my efforts, which was my intent that someone would.

Perhaps offering options on how hashtags behave and let the group owners set them is the best way to go. Default would be how they are now,
and other options that coule be checkboxes maybe:

[ ] Attempt to apply hashtags to all postings by searching archives for closest matches in subject.
[ ] Same as above, but search message body as well.

As for the date being a factor in weather a topic is "stale" or not , I as a group owner dont believe its relevent,
so my group would not need to bother, but for those who do, I suppose a drop down list with anything from "never"
to x days, weeks , months etc could be a feature.

As for a typo in the event someone has a brainstorm and rather retype the subject by memory, or has lost the archives,
or cant access the UI, it would be up to the group owner and their mods to catch the typo, and let them correct the subject.


Now to a genuine oddity. A topic is started without a hashtag, and for some strange reason a subscriber (who may in fact be an owner or moderator) >>replies to it by email adding a hashtag to the subject line. (Don’t ask why they might do that!) That hashtag will not turn up against the topic in the web >>UI, but it will be included in distributed emails and will continue to propagate along the thread if anyone replies to a distributed email with the hashtag in >>the subject line.
My head hurts…
Chris
Hope I allieved some of the pain. Keep up the good work.


moderated Re: #hashtags

 

Chris,

My head hurts…
Two principles of operation might help.

1) Replies don't edit the topic's Subject in the web UI. Only the Edit Topic function does that.

2) When Groups.io processes a message posted by email I don't think it does any modification to the subject line as emailed out to members other than to ensure that it includes the group's Subject tag. In particular it doesn't re-write the message Subject to match the Subject of the topic (if any) to which that reply is attached in the web UI.

Shal


moderated Re: #hashtags

Chris Jones
 

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 06:56 PM, I wrote:
I am now writing the report; it should be finished later today / this evening UK time.

 

The original query (which I have to say I did not find entirely clear in its description of the problem) appears to have conflated two completely separate “phenomena” in the way Groups.io behaves. I would delete the word “anomalies” in my earlier post and replace it with phenomena for the simple reason that I don’t think either of the two can be described as faults, but may not qualify as full features either, although one of them comes rather close.

 

In all fairness the fact that two entirely separate factors are in play did not become really clear until I started investigating, and as far as I have been able to determine there is no interaction between them; neither modifies the action of the other, although on occasions it may seem that they do.

 

As might be realised from the original post the phenomena are exhibited by the behaviour of Hashtags in “unusual” circumstances (i.e. retrospectively applied) and the behaviour of Threading.

 

It is easier to consider threading first. A topic may be started from either the web UI or by email, and replies to that topic can be also sent either way. If the replies are sent via the web UI then by definition the messages will thread correctly, and this will still work  after a long period of topic dormancy. (> 30 days) If the replies are sent by email then they will thread correctly, but at the time of writing it has not been possible to test if there is a “30 day rule” applicable to them for the simple reason that my usual modus operandum is by web  so I have no “old” emailed posts to which I can reply. (I hope to check this in 31 days from now.)

 

There is, however, a second way of replying by email, and that is by composing a “new” email and typing Re: + subject in the subject line. This will thread correctly with the original topic provided that it has not been dormant for > 30 days; if the inactivity on that topic is longer than that then the “Re:” will be stripped off by Groups.io and the subject will appear as a new topic.

 

It must be noted that this method will fail if there is a typing error in the subject so that there is no match between an original subject and the reply in question, resulting in a new topic with a typing error starting; the Re: will be stripped off automatically.  (As an aside the system seems tolerant of 2 spaces rather than one after Re: but the full extent of this tolerance has not been tested.)

 

Now… hashtags. Consider first a topic started with a hashtag applied; it matters not whether the topic was started by web UI or by email. The email sent to subscribers by Groups.io will have the hashtag in its subject line, and that hashtag will be perpetuated by the replies to the original message irrespective of whether those replies are by email or web UI unless for some reason a subscriber sends an email with a typed subject line that does not include the relevant hashtag. In this case the post will appear as normal as part of the topic but the emails sent out by Groups.io will not have the hashtag in the subject line either. All replies generated via the web UI will have the hashtag added.

 

If the hashtag is added retrospectively then the possibilities for confusion become greater. By way of example let us assume that a topic is started with no hashtags and that there are then 4 replies to it (5 posts in total). At that point a moderator edits the subject line and adds a hashtag. Following that, 5 subscribers post replies using the web UI, followed by another 5 who post via email.

 

Now the 5 posts done via the web will result in emails that have the hashtag in the subject line; the next 5 might be more complicated; if their (emailed) replies were replies to one of the initial 5 posts (prior to the addition of the hashtag) then their emails will not have the hashtag in the subject line and neither will the resultant distributed emails; if, however, any of them were replies to one of the messages sent from the web UI then they will have the hashtag in the subject line, and so will the resulting distributed emails. Over time – depending on how many posts the complete thread accumulates – some of the emails distributed to members will have hashtags in the subject line while others will not.

 

Now add the effects of threading and retrospectively – added hashtags together…

 

Looking back to the original query there are bits of evidence missing, e.g. the existence or otherwise of non – hashtagged threads that may have been split by virtue of the way various posts were generated; I think some more detailed investigation by the OP would be in order in the hope of getting a more comprehensive picture of what is happening on his group.

 

Now to a genuine oddity. A topic is started without a hashtag, and for some strange reason a subscriber (who may in fact be an owner or moderator) replies to it by email adding a hashtag to the subject line. (Don’t ask why they might do that!) That hashtag will not turn up against the topic in the web UI, but it will be included in distributed emails and will continue to propagate along the thread if anyone replies to a distributed email with the hashtag in the subject line.

 

My head hurts…

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 


locked Re: suggestion - Consistency (ies)

 

Ken,

It's a matter of "direction." ... The screen talking back - they
are "your"s -- you own them, you set them - but I abide by them.
This is the context I think applies - the user is a visitor at a web site. What appears on the page is the site talking back to you.

Note that the confusion complaints aren't by seasoned users ...
-- It's those who are afraid that clicking something they aren't
supposed to might blow up the world, or at least their laptop.
I fully agree with this point of view, please don't take my disagreement with any of the specific examples as a dismissal of your overall goal.

Settings can occur in different areas.
Indeed they can. And that leads to my primary objection for using that word as the link here. The context of the column of links on the left is "pages of this group". So absent the possessive pronoun I'm concerned that the timid user may be afraid of finding group settings there, and perhaps "blowing up" the group.

My thought was that /Subscription/ better implies a personal connection to the user - in the context of a group it could only refer to one's personal subscription to that group.

At least "Preferences" (display, communication, etc) would be
recognizable.
That's not bad. It may be better.

I think it has a much more personal connotation than /Settings/, and a more "friendly" one. Something offered as your preference doesn't seem as risky as (read with a booming ominous voice in your head) A SETTING.

It would also be consistent usage with the Preferences page in your Account.

But regardless, consistency is the key - when one goes from one screen
to another or to a help page, there are different terms for the same
items that a novice has to stop and wonder, ...
Perhaps the tech writer will take on the challenge of spotting those cases for correction.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/20986

Meanwhile, I imagine Mark would welcome having them pointed out here.

Shal


moderated Re: #hashtags

Chris Jones
 

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 06:32 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
Hopefully Chris' investigation will ultimately lead to better clarity.
The investigations have been done (all bar one which will have to wait for >30 days) and I am now writing the report; it should be finished later today / this evening UK time.

Whether it provides further clarity may be for others to judge...

Chris

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