Date   

moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

 

On 17 Aug 2019 at 12:53, J_Catlady wrote:

The system has to do one thing or the other. It has to collapse top-posts, or
not. It has to collapse bottom posts, or not. If it does nothing, it's doing
something. The system can't be on the fence, make no decision, and "leave it to
group admins." One way or the other, someone is going to be unhappy.
Not collapsing anything is leaving it to group admins to pressure their members
to trim messages properly. Any form of collapsing is the system trying to
enforce some kind of discipline, which will suit some people but not others, as
the discussion here has already proved.

It should also be remembered that very occasionally a reply is not to the body
of the message but to the content of the sig, which is then properly quoted..

Jim

--
http://jimellame.tumblr.com - My thoughts on freedom (needs updating)
http://jimella.wordpress.com - political snippets, especially economic policy
http://jimella.livejournal.com - misc. snippets, some political, some not
Forget Google! I search with https://duckduckgo.com which doesn't spy on you


moderated Re: Feature Request---Group Buys

Duane
 

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 11:56 PM, Dale Hardin wrote:
It would be nice to be able to manage group buys with group members placing their name, and mail/contact info on a list
I'd like to see something like this as well.  I currently have people contact me via a private reply, but keeping the information straight can be difficult at times, especially when there's a large demand for something.  Maybe it could be included in the previously requested Classified Ad/Marketplace page?

A sudden thought.  If there were an option on a database to allow only the table owner and the row owner to see/edit a particular row, that might be an easier implementation.

Duane


moderated Re: Feature Request---Group Buys

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 01:56 AM, Dale Hardin wrote:
Many of the amateur radio groups I belong too have someone offer to run a group buy or purchase parts for distribution to group members.  As a result, there are a lot of "I want one too"  and "put me on the list" messages.  It would be nice to be able to manage group buys with group members placing their name, and mail/contact info on a list maintained by a feature of group.io.  Regards, Dale

 Dale,

The Database feature can accommodate that type of list. The Groups.io Database is limited in functionality, so I would not consider it secure for large financial transactions. But for a friendly group of hams, it probably will suffice.

I hardly ever play with Databases, but it only took a few minutes to put together a sample "Group Buy" table. I included brief documentation in the description to give you an idea of how I did the set up. You can certainly add more columns for more information.


--
Gerald, VE1DT


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

 

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 08:03 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
ro-esp,
Excuse me, should have said Ronaldo. :-)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

 

ro-esp,
Yes, thanks for that catch, I meant exactly the opposite. I meant that the prior posts at the bottom of a reply are collapsed.

On Aug 18, 2019, at 6:33 AM, ro-esp <ro-esp@dds.nl> wrote:

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 09:53 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

In my opinion, Mark's decision to collapse bottom posts but not top posts
do you mean the opposite?


The system has to do one thing or the other.
Yes, and I prefer the autotrim I've seen in some googlegroups:

Delete everything under the last unindented line

AFAIK, it's already the groups.io-default in digests. It would be nice to be able to have it as general setting

groetjes, Ronaldo


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

ro-esp
 

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 09:53 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

In my opinion, Mark's decision to collapse bottom posts but not top posts
do you mean the opposite?


The system has to do one thing or the other.
Yes, and I prefer the autotrim I've seen in some googlegroups:

Delete everything under the last unindented line

AFAIK, it's already the groups.io-default in digests. It would be nice to be able to have it as general setting

groetjes, Ronaldo


moderated Feature Request---Group Buys

Dale Hardin
 

Many of the amateur radio groups I belong too have someone offer to run a group buy or purchase parts for distribution to group members.  As a result, there are a lot of "I want one too"  and "put me on the list" messages.  It would be nice to be able to manage group buys with group members placing their name, and mail/contact info on a list maintained by a feature of group.io.  Regards, Dale


Re: Members Removed for Marking Messages as spam AUTO-Message suggested modification

 

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 06:58 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
If a Premium or higher owner/Moderator wished to bypass needing the
link thy could,given the necessary permission level, simply re-direct
subscribe the subscriber.
I've done that frequently, but only after going thru the hoops of contacting the member outside the system to make sure they want to stay in.

I don't know whether such re-subscription would "resume" their subscription (keeping their identity and settings intact) or give them a new subscription
I can answer that: it does resume the old subscription and keeps everything intact from before.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Re: Members Removed for Marking Messages as spam AUTO-Message suggested modification

 

Bob,

I doubt your sample would be as valid as a non-technical group's.
The groups in question were non-technical (high-school classmates). As I said though, too small to be a meaningful sample. Alas, I don't seem to have retained the notifications.

You are making assumptions here; So pMY assumption is that Mark was
smarter than that and that the link must be executed on the
SUBSCRIBER's device.
I didn't make any assumption about what Mark might do, I simply pointed out that it is an issue with the proposal.

That said, testing for whether the link was referenced on a given member's device might in the general case be a thornier problem than you imagine, especially in groups like mine where most members have interacted solely by email.

If a Premium or higher owner/Moderator wished to bypass needing the
link thy could,given the necessary permission level, simply re-direct
subscribe the subscriber.
That's a good point.

I don't know whether such re-subscription would "resume" their subscription (keeping their identity and settings intact) or give them a new subscription, but for most email-only members the differences is not important.

Shal


Re: Members Removed for Marking Messages as spam AUTO-Message suggested modification

 

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 06:31 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
I'm quite sincere in my assertion, and I don't appreciate you impugning my honesty
Shal, I would not, and never meant to impugn your honesty. I  evidently mixed up the two words (with and without prefix, resp.) and ended up screwing up both of them. I only meant that there's really not a good case on either side. I apologize for how that came out.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


Re: Members Removed for Marking Messages as spam AUTO-Message suggested modification

 

J,

... it’s [dis]ingenuous to reassure or surmise that the resubscribe
email might be somehow different and reach these members even though
group emails don’t.
I assure you that I'm quite sincere in my assertion, and I don't appreciate you impugning my honesty. It isn't "might somehow", the distinctions are plain facts; how a given receiving service might use those distinctions is speculative.

I did not state or imply that the resume notice would always get through. I was merely refuting Bob's assertion that it definitely would not.

Shal


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

 

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 04:20 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Mark is the only one with such data.
I agree that would be a fascinating number, I'm almost sure it's very large (it's clear beta and GMF have a large intersection, as well as do many of the "cats" groups I belong to, for example), and I would say the number doesn't really matter anyway when it comes to wanting a product that behaves consistently in key ways across groups. Claiming the number of people who belong to more than one group might be small is not IMHO a good argument against it. It's almost a philosophical debate at this point - what's consistency, what's a key feature, etc. - so it's time for me to bow out
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 8/17/2019 13:08, J_Catlady wrote:
Making something like this a group configuration option, though, I don't think would be a good solution. Many people participate in more than one group, and people develop expectations about how the product behaves with respect to their messages. Making quotes behave very differently from one group to another I think might be frustrating and confusing to users. You might use a quote, expect it to be visible, and then find belatedly, upon seeing your post onlist, that you're in one of the groups that collapes top quotes. Or vice-versa. I don't think this would be good for the product as a whole. There are some features that just don't lend themselves well to group configuration options, and IMHO this is one of them. 

I think that would depend a lot on how many people really belong to different groups with different administrators. Mark is the only one with such data.

Even so, I think this underestimates human flexibility. For example, Shal is the only one who has ever asked me not to include my sig line, so when I write to GMF, I make an effort to remember to remove it, even if that is the only group for which that is true.

I firmly believe that issues of style can and will vary among groups depending on their culture, their history and so forth and thus believe that as many things as possible should be left to the group administrators to decide.

Best,

Glenn

--
We must work to make the Democratic Party the Marketplace of Ideas not the Marketplace of Favors.

Virus-free. www.avast.com


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

 

Making something like this a group configuration option, though, I don't think would be a good solution. Many people participate in more than one group, and people develop expectations about how the product behaves with respect to their messages. Making quotes behave very differently from one group to another I think might be frustrating and confusing to users. You might use a quote, expect it to be visible, and then find belatedly, upon seeing your post onlist, that you're in one of the groups that collapes top quotes. Or vice-versa. I don't think this would be good for the product as a whole. There are some features that just don't lend themselves well to group configuration options, and IMHO this is one of them. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

 

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 12:58 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
This is not true. It could be per group configuration option.
Yes, it absolutely could. That's the only other possible solution.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 8/17/2019 12:53, J_Catlady wrote:
The system has to do one thing or the other. It has to collapse top-posts, or not. It has to collapse bottom posts, or not. If it does nothing, it's doing something. The system can't be on the fence, make no decision, and "leave it to group admins." One way or the other, someone is going to be unhappy. 

This is not true. It could be per group configuration option.

Best,

Glenn

--
We must work to make the Democratic Party the Marketplace of Ideas not the Marketplace of Favors.

Virus-free. www.avast.com


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

 

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 11:40 AM, Jim Fisher wrote:
My feeling is that control of this sort of thing should be left
to group admins, with no attempt by the system to enforce any particular
approach.
In my opinion, Mark's decision to collapse bottom posts but not top posts fits with what the majority of people expect. Gmail might be taken as a standard here: it does not collapse top posts, which is consistent with groups.io; and it collapses bottom posts if the prior post being quoted contains the signature, which is a clue that the post was not trimmed (and which makes it difficult to read) - which is what I was originally requesting but seems to be too hard to implement (or not worth it). I think this is the right decision, too.

The system has to do one thing or the other. It has to collapse top-posts, or not. It has to collapse bottom posts, or not. If it does nothing, it's doing something. The system can't be on the fence, make no decision, and "leave it to group admins." One way or the other, someone is going to be unhappy. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 8/17/2019 11:40, Jim Fisher wrote:
It seems to me that most participants in this discussion are making unjustified 
assumptions about how other people reply to emails. Some people routinely top 
post, leaving sometimes too much (as assumed by some here) but sometimes a 
properly trimmed quote which they wish to be included under their reply. On the 
other hand, on one quite busy mailing list I'm on (not a group) top posting is 
frowned on but very often a complete topic of many messages is left at the top 
of the reply. My feeling is that control of this sort of thing should be left 
to group admins, with no attempt by the system to enforce any particular 
approach.

Jim Fisher

Hear, hear!

Best,

Glenn

--
We must work to make the Democratic Party the Marketplace of Ideas not the Marketplace of Favors.

Virus-free. www.avast.com


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

 

On 16 Aug 2019 at 18:29, J_Catlady wrote:

I agree! Hiding the quote makes total sense for quotes below a reply, because
those quotes are accidental, not meant to be read, and a PITA as they
accumulate. Intentional quotes at the top of the reply are an entirely different
situation and I see no reason to hide them (and force readers to click on a link
to see them) unless they consist of the entire prior message, complete with sig.
Perhaps there is simply no solution to that problem. Faced with the choice, I'd
restore things to how they were.
It seems to me that most participants in this discussion are making unjustified
assumptions about how other people reply to emails. Some people routinely top
post, leaving sometimes too much (as assumed by some here) but sometimes a
properly trimmed quote which they wish to be included under their reply. On the
other hand, on one quite busy mailing list I'm on (not a group) top posting is
frowned on but very often a complete topic of many messages is left at the top
of the reply. My feeling is that control of this sort of thing should be left
to group admins, with no attempt by the system to enforce any particular
approach.

Jim Fisher


moderated Re: the fix to including sigs in text went too far ?

 

Mark,

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 09:08 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
it behaves differently if the message you are replying to contains a signature or not. If it does not, and you bottom reply, it does not collapse the quoted message. If the message you are replying to does contain a signature, it does collapse the quoted message, but keeps the 'On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 8:59 PM Mark Fletcher .... wrote' part.
That's very interesting, because it's nearly exactly what I was requesting - namely, collapse only if sig is included (to avoid the confusion I experienced in reading these kinds of messages).

Anyway, glad you reverted the change. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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