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moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

On the web UI, it is under More >> View Source

The command on your email program varies. eg) Outlook 2010: "View Source", GMAIL: "Show Original".

This is info that is readily available to anyone receiving emails or using a browser. Mark just made it easier to find when an Owner / Moderator is doing their job.

--
Gerald


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

She probably still is a member of my group, but I'm only concerned if people cause trouble and fortunately that seems to have passed us by. The problem of fake members hasn't happened in years, for which I am very grateful, but if it did happen, it wouldn't be the end of the world. All group crises pass.

Helen


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

Leeni
 

That information can be helpful in some kinds of groups where members join a group for the wrong reasons (spying)
 
I would say while it is good to have the ISP and location on the pending application which unless we write down or save this email which most owners do not, it would be more beneficial to an owner to have that ISP show up on the pending application and then also after the member joins on the membership list for reference.
 
Leeni 
 
  
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: Helen
Date: 6/22/2019 3:46:36 PM
Subject: Re: [beta] Pending subscription message now including location/other info
 
IP addresses may be available to the host (groups.io in this instance) but not routinely to a user of that host IMO. These are groups, not online shops or banks.
 
I haven't had to deal with a fake member for years but in such cases I would deal with that person without needing to invade the privacy of the thousands of legitimate members, for whom I have zero interest in whether they really are located where they say they are. But then I'm quite quaint in this modern age in that I am a big fan of online privacy, which is one reason why I don't insist upon people's real names when they join my groups.
 
Helen
 
 


moderated Re: fix toggling of alpha column-order vs which column ordered by #suggestion

 

Mark,

Without some reasonable amount of work, I can't make it so individual
columns remember their settings.
Too bad. I didn't consider the effort it might take. Presumably the effort is because it (the last seen direction of each column) would need to be remembered per-user, perhaps in a cookie?

The problem is that when sorting in a database, sorting most recent
first on a number (ie date) corresponds to sorting from z to a on a
string. I'm sorting the same 'direction' according to the database,
but it looks like the opposite to you.
That I understood.

I don't think it would have been of nearly as much concern if the columns each remembered their "last seen" direction; which is the only reason I tossed that idea into this topic.

I've made the following change on the members page. If it's at least
sufficient for now, I'll propagate it elsewhere. ... Please let me
know what you think.
I think it is fine now. I primarily didn't like having a direction change in one column affect the direction of another.

Shal


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

Agree with Dano. No matter what Mark decides to do, this is not the place to submit that xyz feature is “too much work” for Mark, or “anyway, there’s a workaround,” or “moderators should do their jobs and this is one of them.” Mark himself has said to lay off this kind of talk in beta. Let people make their suggestions and let Mark decide. He is completely capable of deciding what’s too much work for him and what isn’t. 😊

On Jun 22, 2019, at 3:29 PM, D R Stinson <dano@mt.net> wrote:

They're not trying to be another member - in fact this simply needs to see what a basic unspecified member sees.
Rather than asking Mark to find a solution in software, I submit that your description brings us back to the idea of an owner / moderator having an "ordinary" subscription so that the different views can be determined "in house".
There are whole lot of niceties on groups.io that were evolved in from the very beginning of beta based on suggestions such as this. Mark has always seemed to want groups.io to be the best possible system for running groups, and that includes ease of operation for moderators. So users have offered a lot of their own ideas.

Remember that Mark is the one who will read all the input and make his own judgement on what he considers useful or frivolous. And he may see a possibility that makes things simpler in a different way. We don't make any decisions here on beta. Workarounds are worked out in GMF, but suggestions are offered here. That's what this string has been about - passing along an idea. Yes, there is a workaround for this, just like there's a workaround for a great many functions that have been built into groups.io, but this just might make some owners' and moderators' jobs here just a little easier. Not everyone who runs a group is a programmer. Some of us know enough to get through things, but we can see where a simple switch would save a lot of time and perhaps the loss of a thought as we work through the log in/log out process and then reverse it to come back to where we were.

Dano


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

They're not trying to be another member - in fact this simply needs to see what a basic unspecified member sees.
Rather than asking Mark to find a solution in software, I submit that your description brings us back to the idea of an owner / moderator having an "ordinary" subscription so that the different views can be determined "in house".
There are whole lot of niceties on groups.io that were evolved in from the very beginning of beta based on suggestions such as this. Mark has always seemed to want groups.io to be the best possible system for running groups, and that includes ease of operation for moderators. So users have offered a lot of their own ideas.

Remember that Mark is the one who will read all the input and make his own judgement on what he considers useful or frivolous. And he may see a possibility that makes things simpler in a different way. We don't make any decisions here on beta. Workarounds are worked out in GMF, but suggestions are offered here. That's what this string has been about - passing along an idea. Yes, there is a workaround for this, just like there's a workaround for a great many functions that have been built into groups.io, but this just might make some owners' and moderators' jobs here just a little easier. Not everyone who runs a group is a programmer. Some of us know enough to get through things, but we can see where a simple switch would save a lot of time and perhaps the loss of a thought as we work through the log in/log out process and then reverse it to come back to where we were.

Dano


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 01:46 PM, Helen wrote:
I am a big fan of online privacy, which is one reason why I don't insist upon people's real names when they join my groups.
You could not possibly be a bigger fan of online privacy than me. :-) I don't even use my own real name in any group, and would never consider doing so, and certainly don't insist on anyone use their real name in my group (in fact, I often suggest that they don't). 

I haven't had to deal with a fake member for years but in such cases I would deal with that person without needing to invade the privacy of the thousands of legitimate members
Without their IP address etc., how would you even know when you had a fake member? FWIW, the member who pulled that stunt in my group was also a member of yours - although I don't know whether she also used her alternative accounts in your group.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 04:14 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
 
the pending subscription email notifications now include the pending subscriber's platform, browser, location and IP address in the message,
Dumb question: where is this info? I just tried to use this feature for the first time and I can't find it.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

IP addresses may be available to the host (groups.io in this instance) but not routinely to a user of that host IMO. These are groups, not online shops or banks.

I haven't had to deal with a fake member for years but in such cases I would deal with that person without needing to invade the privacy of the thousands of legitimate members, for whom I have zero interest in whether they really are located where they say they are. But then I'm quite quaint in this modern age in that I am a big fan of online privacy, which is one reason why I don't insist upon people's real names when they join my groups.

Helen


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

Chris Jones
 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 08:26 PM, D R Stinson wrote:
They're not trying to be another member - in fact this simply needs to see what a basic unspecified member sees.
Rather than asking Mark to find a solution in software, I submit that your description brings us back to the idea of an owner / moderator having an "ordinary" subscription so that the different views can be determined "in house".

In any event I question whether there is any such thing as an "unspecified member"; in the "Files" example earlier would that be an unspecified member looking at a file they had uploaded, or a file someone else had uploaded? The two views would be different.

I am a member of a test group owned by a person well known on this group and GMF, but I don't think it would be appropriate for me to invite you to join it. But it is very useful, although to get the best from it one needs to have dual memberships; one as a moderator, the other as a member. OK, that involves some occasionally tedious work logging in and out but the outcome is worth it. A voyage of discovery...

Chris


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 12:26 PM, D R Stinson wrote:
This boils down to Moderator View / Member View not being "binary";
Good point. Although I hate to model anything on FB, what about a "view as" feature, where you'd specify the member you're viewing as.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 09:50 AM, Helen wrote:
it should be made clear to applicants that this information is being sent to group mods.
Isn't this standard for many websites? People understand that their browser info and IP address are available when they apply to various things.

I personally don't care about the location or their OS, but I think having their IP address is crucial. We get spammers who pretend not to be spammers by responding to the pending questionnaire with reasonable-sounding answers. Sometimes these are disgruntled former members who've been banned from the group. There was one such former member who took it upon herself to save all the emails of group members and send out a several-page-long email blast to them about the group and how she'd been unfairly banned. She then sent me an email saying she had several other accounts in my group, under other email addresses, and I'd never find her. She proved it by quoting some of the messages that posted after she'd been banned. 

So I would like to know everyone's IP address at a minimum. Since some people have multiple IP addresses, it would be helpful as backup to also have the geographical info available.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 02:31 PM, D R Stinson wrote:
I too often forget that the members see something different, and I'm not always certain what is different and what is not. I would suggest a prompt on the screen to indicate non-moderator mode when it's turned on.
Sadly it isn't quite that straightforward. Looking first at Files and Photos all moderators see the same thing, but what a member sees depends on whether or not the File or Photo (Album) is one they they themselves created or if it is one created by someone else.
. . . .
 
This boils down to Moderator View / Member View not being "binary"; there are subtle  variations within Member View meaning that a toggle between the 2 states wouldn't work for the simple reason that there are more than two states.
 
----------------------------------------
 
You're making this much more complicated than it need to be. First, in all cases I'm referring to, I'm the group owner or have all moderator permissions. Let's just simplify it to that. The issue isn't so much what a moderator has permission to do anyway. Moderators run into blocks on their authority if they try to do something they're not supposed to and should understand they have limitations. I'm referring to the owner or anyone the owner tasks with and provides authority for doing certain things. I don't see that this is really much different than any other moderator tool. It lets someone who has done something to a page or post see what the typical members see. They're not trying to be another member - in fact this simply needs to see what a basic unspecified member sees.
 
Dano


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

Duane
 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 11:50 AM, Helen wrote:
I find this grossly intrusive. I can see where people are to the nearest small town, which may be helpful for local associations, but which for my international groups is frankly irrelevant. And their OS is their business, not mine. For certain groups (e.g. certain heath issues), this could even put people off joining.

I vet people via the requirement to respond to a questionnaire, which works just fine. Any way to turn this intrusive monitoring off please?

If it must be on, it should be made clear to applicants that this information is being sent to group mods.
Most, if not all, of this information can be garnered from many email headers, just takes a little more digging.  Since only Owners (or moderators with sufficient permission) will see this, I don't understand how it is intrusive.  According to the original post by Mark, even if it were removed from the online headers, it would still be on record at Groups.io as a source of troubleshooting and security.  I actually like being able to see it, though I seldom look.

Duane


moderated Re: Pending subscription message now including location/other info

 

I find this grossly intrusive. I can see where people are to the nearest small town, which may be helpful for local associations, but which for my international groups is frankly irrelevant. And their OS is their business, not mine. For certain groups (e.g. certain heath issues), this could even put people off joining.

I vet people via the requirement to respond to a questionnaire, which works just fine. Any way to turn this intrusive monitoring off please?

If it must be on, it should be made clear to applicants that this information is being sent to group mods.

Helen


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

Chris Jones
 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 02:31 PM, D R Stinson wrote:
I too often forget that the members see something different, and I'm not always certain what is different and what is not. I would suggest a prompt on the screen to indicate non-moderator mode when it's turned on.
Sadly it isn't quite that straightforward. Looking first at Files and Photos all moderators see the same thing, but what a member sees depends on whether or not the File or Photo (Album) is one they they themselves created or if it is one created by someone else. There is a further subdivision within Photo Albums because an album's creator can predetermine whether others can upload to the same album or not. (As an aside a moderator can change that anyway!)

This boils down to Moderator View / Member View not being "binary"; there are subtle  variations within Member View meaning that a toggle between the 2 states wouldn't work for the simple reason that there are more than two states.

Although strictly speaking this is outside the original query, what Moderator "A" sees in any given group may differ from what Moderator "B" sees in the same group. These differences are a function of the the greoup Owner has allocated to each of them as Moderator Permissions; the result is that 2 moderators in the same group trying to sort something out in the absence of the owner (who by definition has every permission, and knows what permissions he gave to each moderator) may struggle if their permissions are different; what each will see, and what each can actually do is not the same. As in the case above a toggle between Moderator View and Member View may not by definition provide a complete picture.

I think a step back from a specific request to Mark might be in order.

Chris


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

Hi,
Just adding up to this request. It would be really useful for me as well.

How many of us are requesting for something like that right now? I hope we'll get our wish answered :)

Cheers,
Marcio AKA Starboy

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 06:47 AM, Gerald Boutin wrote:
Presumably that also means you don't often need this feature.
That's a wrong conclusion. Plus it depends on what you mean by "need."
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Hashtag presentation

Benoît Dumeaux
 

Like what you do on hashtags presentation.

To this page https://beta.groups.io/g/main/hashtags possibly to sort by popularity.

Possibility to filtered topics with 2 or more hashtags.

Thanks!

--
Dreadaxe


moderated Re: Controlling rw permissions (files section)

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 10:16 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 07:58 PM, Gerald Boutin wrote:
This is a very common request with a relatively simple solution. Create another subscription
But the more recent requests include not having to go through the trouble of creating another subscription in order to see a non-moderator view of the group. I've had several non-mod accounts to view my groups for years, but rarely use them because I've actually got to go into those email addresses (which I barely remember the passwords for), etc. Would be much better to have a "view as non-moderator" feature.
 
--
J
Presumably that also means you don't often need this feature. That is probably OK for someone with a lot of experience with the system. I also find that there are less and less occasions that I need to use the non-moderator account. The way I take advantage of the additional account is that I log in on another browser altogether. That way, I can have my cake and eat it too.
 
--
Gerald

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