Date   

moderated Re: Suggestion for new feed page

Holly <holly@...>
 

OK, I was totally confused :) I went to groups.io and assumed that would be the feed page. From there it's 2 clicks to get into a group.

The actual feed page, as you obviously know :), is groups.io/feed. That's really not my style, since I want on top the group I own, which won't be the one with the most traffic, so won't be bothering with it.

Thanks for the BFO :)

Holly

On 4/4/19 10:05 AM, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 08:50 AM, Holly wrote:
I expected the group names to be links taking me directly to those
groups
Might not be a bad idea, but you may have overlooked something.  There are two ways to get directly to a group from the feed page.  Clicking on the group 'logo' to the left of the description or using the View All to the right of the Active Topics label.  Both will take you to the Topics view of the group though, not the home page.
Duane


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Marv Waschke
 

I've worked on a lot of software projects, used, designed, developed, presided over a lot of different defect/suggestion systems. How well they work seems to depend more on the people who use them than the mechanics of the system. I observe that people who own and moderate discussion groups tend to be chatty, opinionated, contentious, etc. (myself included.) It's why we're here.  Given the nature of the user base, this system works pretty well. No one is excluded, the discussions are pretty much to the point, and good ideas surface and are wrung out.

If I were to do anything, I'd add a formal tracking and queue management system with priority rankings, status(reject, under consideration, queued, in  work, testing, whatever) and ETAs like bugzilla but that's overkill for the size of Mark's operation. If he had 10 engineers working, sure, but tending a tracking system is work too. On my projects, we usually had someone assigned to administer the tracking system and that often approached a full time job.
Best, Marv


moderated Re: Suggestion for new feed page

Duane
 

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 08:50 AM, Holly wrote:
I expected the group names to be links taking me directly to those groups
Might not be a bad idea, but you may have overlooked something.  There are two ways to get directly to a group from the feed page.  Clicking on the group 'logo' to the left of the description or using the View All to the right of the Active Topics label.  Both will take you to the Topics view of the group though, not the home page.

Duane


moderated Suggestion for new feed page

Holly <holly@...>
 

I just went to my feed page for the first time (nearly everything I do is via email so don't visit very often), and I rather like it. After all the discussion I thought I wouldn't - I still don't like the FaceBook feed pages after I guess 4 years or so, but this one is clean and easy to navigate.

However, I expected the group names to be links taking me directly to those groups - not because I thought that I understood it to be the case from discussions here, but just because it seemed logical with the format I saw on the feed page. Instead, I had to do <gasping> :) a whole 2 more clicks to get to the group I own - clicking on groups in the side bar, then on the group in question.

Is it easily doable to make the group names in the feed page linked to the group in question? Do others feel this would be a nice function to add?

Thanks,

Holly


moderated Re: Where’s that damn moderator?

Ken Schweizer
 

Family comes first. Enjoy them!!

 

Ken

 

“You do what you can for as long as you can, and when you finally can’t, you do the next best thing. You back up but you don’t give up.” ―Chuck Yeager

 

From: main@beta.groups.io [mailto:main@beta.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Fletcher
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 2:48 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: [beta] Where’s that damn moderator?

 

Hi all,

 

It’s spring break here and the kids are out of school. So I’m not in front of the computer a lot this week. I will respond to everything hopefully later tonight.

 

Thanks,

Mark


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 04:04 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
If this were to be implemented just wait until you get your first crank. 
Right, which is one of the many reasons I had it on my backburner as a thought and hadn't yet suggested it. When Samuel posted his "anonymous" idea, I just thought I'd mention it.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 04:53 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
People could then easily voice their concerns and complaints with a particular group to the group owners without having to suffer, or worrying about suffering, negative consequences.
If this were to be implemented just wait until you get your first crank.   If you can't or won't put your name to your concerns or complaints for an online group then they're not that essential.  And I can say this with decades of experience with these venues.

But, again, it comes back to, "Doesn't matter to me if it's an option," as it's one I would never, ever exercise from either side of the equation, so if it's felt this idea has merit then have at it!  I do think that one must consider what this might mean when one gets a crank, and I've now made that cautionary statement.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 01:36 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
I come back to supporting the idea of a suggestions e-mail address that would be "off-beta" and go straight to Mark, but where he would obviously know from whom the suggestion originated.
Brian, I totally agree with this.

Also, not every feature change is, will be, or should be subject to review by the membership at large.  You cannot please all of the people all of the time, and if Mark elects to make a change one must remember that Groups.io is "his product."
And with this.
We seem to be on the same page now.

As for the "anonymous suggestion box' idea, that's something I was thinking about proposing on a per-group basis - not for groups.io product suggestions (as Samuel proposed). People could then easily voice their concerns and complaints with a particular group to the group owners without having to suffer, or worrying about suffering, negative consequences.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Personally, I see no point in a truly anonymous suggestion box, as Mark has solicited and continues to solicit suggestions from the membership at large.  If one is making a suggestion to him there's no reason he shouldn't know who made it if he wished to explore it further with the person making the suggestion.

I come back to supporting the idea of a suggestions e-mail address that would be "off-beta" and go straight to Mark, but where he would obviously know from whom the suggestion originated.

This seems, in the final analysis, to be what he wants anyway based upon his post, Feature bloat and what should and should not be added.
If no discussion of suggestions by others is desired, and that does appear to be what is wanted, having same being made on an open forum makes little sense to begin with.  Another option, were suggestions to still be made on the beta group, would be instant moderation on any topic using the #suggestion family of hashtags (and I would include a number of others that exist as being just another term for suggestion).

Also, not every feature change is, will be, or should be subject to review by the membership at large.  You cannot please all of the people all of the time, and if Mark elects to make a change one must remember that Groups.io is "his product."  I have to deal with product changes that I don't like with virtually any cyber-product I've ever used, and Groups.io has not been any different in that regard.  And some of the things I don't like others adore.  You just can't please all of the people all of the time, and trying to do so is a recipe for disaster.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

Thanks, Dano.
And also, I agree about "Likes." But since they're still with us, I'll "Like" that. :-)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 12:36 PM, Samuel Murray wrote:
Routing the suggestion to just one small group of people who may have better things to do,
We may not be understanding each other. That's not what I proposed.

The developers are subscribed to the beta group,
The developers? You mean Mark? :-)

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

I'm tired of all this noise. The biggest logical fallacy put forth here is that beta is a 'democracy'. Groups are not democracies, and certainly when the developer is involved they are not. Groups are at best benevolent dictatorships, because they have an owner who is in charge of them. And trying to speak for the product developer, who owns and manages all of this, or tell other people what is right or not right could be a big mistake.

J offered a very reasonable request. I can see the value in the idea. It was simple and straightforward. =That idea is now Mark's, to do with as he deems worthy.= Shal also added that this discussion is beyond what Mark has asked for here on beta, and he is correct. Beyond that I have read nothing of significant substance - just puffery. In my opinion, this whole discussion should move to GMF.

I also think this thread is a good argument against 'likes'. It's just crows squawking at each other instead of offering anything useful.

Since the 'big migration' there seems to be so many noisy people everywhere who want to sound so wise, but wind up sounding more like biblical 'clanging gongs'.

Dano

----- Original Message -----

I hope that Mark puts this hapless thread out of its misery, and soon.
HINT:

There wouldn't BE a THREAD if folks didn't continually and continuously respond with snippits and barbs and trying to be Marks Personal Beta Assistant (or would that be Personal Trainer?)

Let a suggestion stand and then I'm fairly certain that Mark has the mental capacity to understand and pass judgment on it.


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/04/03 09:47 PM, Bob Bellizzi wrote:

I think that an Anonymous suggestion box would increase Mark's burden; he would be the only one who could promote the suggestion initially to review.
Please read my suggestion carefully.

My suggestion is that suggestions made through the suggestion box be posted straight to the beta list, so it would not affect the developers' burden in any way.

Samuel


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

Bob, this sounds really good to me, modulo details that would need to be worked out. I like the general scheme.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Where’s that damn moderator?

 

Hi all,

It’s spring break here and the kids are out of school. So I’m not in front of the computer a lot this week. I will respond to everything hopefully later tonight.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Bob Bellizzi
 

I think that an Anonymous suggestion box would increase Mark's burden; he would be the only one who could promote the suggestion initially to review.
What I think is a better system for Mark but would likely not fly with this group is a more formal change request system,.
You enter your change request into a form, including detail and justification and forward it (to Mark via the Submit button)
Mark weighs it for overall value to his venture (he does own this domain.)
If he decides that it fits into his overall plan and would be a general improvement for groups.io, he posts it to the "shooting range" (Beta group) 
Beta group does what it does and Mark at some point, halts conversation (freezes the topic) and makes a final judgement based on his analysis of the suggestion and the conversation which he posts to the Beta Group ( and the initiator)
He can reject it at any time in the process, from right after submission all the way until just prior to integration into the system.

I'm going on break for a bit now so have at it

--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 12:31 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
I'd say that all "comments, suggestions, ideas,feedback " are given to Mark (Groups.io) the instant they're posted.
Absolutely correct and that is exactly what I said. I said they own the unexpressed idea, the idea while it's still in their heads. They are not obligated to post it at all. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/04/03 09:24 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

In my version, the groups.io box is routed to Mark or a surrogate
(not to a group) and is not anonymous, leaving Mark with the ability
to ask questions about the proposed suggestions...
Routing the suggestion to just one small group of people who may have better things to do, would defeat the purpose of my proposal, which is to save the developers from having to "ask questions" to suggestors individually.

The developers are subscribed to the beta group, and they are smart enough to set filters on their mail clients to flag initial posts labelled #anonymous... if they really believe that such suggestions are likely to be of higher value than suggestions made by people who took the effort to join the beta group and offer their suggestions up for peer scrutiny.

Samuel


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from J_Catlady at 4/3/2019 06:57 PM UTC:
 
The user owns their idea until they give it to Mark, per the TOU, as I've said several times.

As long as we're talking about the TOS, let's look at the actual wording.

When it comes to ownership of posted content as expressed in the TOS, "you own all right, title and interest in and to your User Content..." That means no one else can claim your posted content - your intellectual property - as their own. It says nothing that prevents discussion of your ideas, including modification of them.

As far as the user owning their ideas until "they give it to Mark," I'd say that all "comments, suggestions, ideas,feedback " are given to Mark (Groups.io) the instant they're posted. I say that because the TOS says, "You acknowledge and agree that any QUESTIONS, COMMENTS, SUGGESTIONS, IDEAS, FEEDBACK OR OTHER INFORMATION ABOUT THE SERVICE (SUBMISSIONS), [ emphasis mine] provided by you to Groups.io are non-confidential and Groups.io will be entitled to the unrestricted use and dissemination of these Submissions for any purpose, commercial or otherwise, without acknowledgment or compensation to you."


And the point is that they may decide not to provide it at all to groups.io if they have to do it in this venue.

That's not necessarily a bad thing at all. In the case of some ideas it's probably the very best decision that could be made.

Jim H


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

ps I’m not “Mrs” Catlady. :-)

On Apr 3, 2019, at 12:18 PM, Samuel Murray <@ugcheleuce> wrote:


Hello everyone

[Reposting as a separate topic because I'm curious about what others think of this idea. Following on Mrs Catlady's suggestion about a separate suggestion feature.]

I would like to propose that opportunity do be given to people to make anonymous suggestions, i.e. make suggestions without revealing their own identity and without feeling a need to be drawn into a discussion about their suggestions.

This feature would take the form of a suggestion box that is linked to from the About page.

However, unlike Mrs Catlady's suggestion of a separate mailing list, I would propose that such anonymous suggestions get sent straight to the beta list.

Such tips would obviously be moderated, so that people can't use the
feature to spam the group anonymously.

The messages can get a special subject line flag [anon] or a hashtag #anonymous to make it clear to group members that it was submitted anonymously, and to make it easier for the developers to find such suggestions' initial posts.

This would allow people to submit RFEs without themselves having to sign up for the beta list, while giving the developers all the benefits of new suggestions being discussed.

The only downside is that proposers would not be able to help clarify their suggestions, but presumably they would not want to do so anyway, even if given the opportunity. In some cases the fact that the original proposer is not there to "defend" his suggestion may even lead to higher quality or more tightly focused discussions in some cases.

Upon clicking the submit button, the anonymous tip giver can then get a
confirmation message on screen, saying that his suggestion was successfully posted to the suggestions mailing list, and that if he is interested in what others think of his suggestion, he can bookmark the link and visit back.

This suggestion does not solve Mrs. Catlady's problem about "ownership" of the idea, but I don't understand the idea of ownership of ideas anyway. If a user really, really wants to "own" his suggestion, he can mail the developers directly.

So, what do you think?

Samuel


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu