Date   

moderated Where’s that damn moderator?

 

Hi all,

It’s spring break here and the kids are out of school. So I’m not in front of the computer a lot this week. I will respond to everything hopefully later tonight.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Bob Bellizzi
 

I think that an Anonymous suggestion box would increase Mark's burden; he would be the only one who could promote the suggestion initially to review.
What I think is a better system for Mark but would likely not fly with this group is a more formal change request system,.
You enter your change request into a form, including detail and justification and forward it (to Mark via the Submit button)
Mark weighs it for overall value to his venture (he does own this domain.)
If he decides that it fits into his overall plan and would be a general improvement for groups.io, he posts it to the "shooting range" (Beta group) 
Beta group does what it does and Mark at some point, halts conversation (freezes the topic) and makes a final judgement based on his analysis of the suggestion and the conversation which he posts to the Beta Group ( and the initiator)
He can reject it at any time in the process, from right after submission all the way until just prior to integration into the system.

I'm going on break for a bit now so have at it

--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 12:31 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:
I'd say that all "comments, suggestions, ideas,feedback " are given to Mark (Groups.io) the instant they're posted.
Absolutely correct and that is exactly what I said. I said they own the unexpressed idea, the idea while it's still in their heads. They are not obligated to post it at all. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/04/03 09:24 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

In my version, the groups.io box is routed to Mark or a surrogate
(not to a group) and is not anonymous, leaving Mark with the ability
to ask questions about the proposed suggestions...
Routing the suggestion to just one small group of people who may have better things to do, would defeat the purpose of my proposal, which is to save the developers from having to "ask questions" to suggestors individually.

The developers are subscribed to the beta group, and they are smart enough to set filters on their mail clients to flag initial posts labelled #anonymous... if they really believe that such suggestions are likely to be of higher value than suggestions made by people who took the effort to join the beta group and offer their suggestions up for peer scrutiny.

Samuel


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from J_Catlady at 4/3/2019 06:57 PM UTC:
 
The user owns their idea until they give it to Mark, per the TOU, as I've said several times.

As long as we're talking about the TOS, let's look at the actual wording.

When it comes to ownership of posted content as expressed in the TOS, "you own all right, title and interest in and to your User Content..." That means no one else can claim your posted content - your intellectual property - as their own. It says nothing that prevents discussion of your ideas, including modification of them.

As far as the user owning their ideas until "they give it to Mark," I'd say that all "comments, suggestions, ideas,feedback " are given to Mark (Groups.io) the instant they're posted. I say that because the TOS says, "You acknowledge and agree that any QUESTIONS, COMMENTS, SUGGESTIONS, IDEAS, FEEDBACK OR OTHER INFORMATION ABOUT THE SERVICE (SUBMISSIONS), [ emphasis mine] provided by you to Groups.io are non-confidential and Groups.io will be entitled to the unrestricted use and dissemination of these Submissions for any purpose, commercial or otherwise, without acknowledgment or compensation to you."


And the point is that they may decide not to provide it at all to groups.io if they have to do it in this venue.

That's not necessarily a bad thing at all. In the case of some ideas it's probably the very best decision that could be made.

Jim H


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

ps I’m not “Mrs” Catlady. :-)

On Apr 3, 2019, at 12:18 PM, Samuel Murray <samuelmurray@yandex.com> wrote:


Hello everyone

[Reposting as a separate topic because I'm curious about what others think of this idea. Following on Mrs Catlady's suggestion about a separate suggestion feature.]

I would like to propose that opportunity do be given to people to make anonymous suggestions, i.e. make suggestions without revealing their own identity and without feeling a need to be drawn into a discussion about their suggestions.

This feature would take the form of a suggestion box that is linked to from the About page.

However, unlike Mrs Catlady's suggestion of a separate mailing list, I would propose that such anonymous suggestions get sent straight to the beta list.

Such tips would obviously be moderated, so that people can't use the
feature to spam the group anonymously.

The messages can get a special subject line flag [anon] or a hashtag #anonymous to make it clear to group members that it was submitted anonymously, and to make it easier for the developers to find such suggestions' initial posts.

This would allow people to submit RFEs without themselves having to sign up for the beta list, while giving the developers all the benefits of new suggestions being discussed.

The only downside is that proposers would not be able to help clarify their suggestions, but presumably they would not want to do so anyway, even if given the opportunity. In some cases the fact that the original proposer is not there to "defend" his suggestion may even lead to higher quality or more tightly focused discussions in some cases.

Upon clicking the submit button, the anonymous tip giver can then get a
confirmation message on screen, saying that his suggestion was successfully posted to the suggestions mailing list, and that if he is interested in what others think of his suggestion, he can bookmark the link and visit back.

This suggestion does not solve Mrs. Catlady's problem about "ownership" of the idea, but I don't understand the idea of ownership of ideas anyway. If a user really, really wants to "own" his suggestion, he can mail the developers directly.

So, what do you think?

Samuel


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

 

I was going to propose something like this on an individual group basis, in addition to an overall groups.io suggestion box. In my version, the groups.io box is routed to Mark or a surrogate (not to a group) and is not anonymous, leaving Mark with the ability to ask questions about the proposed suggestions; whereas the individual group suggestion boxes would be anonymous, one-shot messages touted to the group owner.

On Apr 3, 2019, at 12:18 PM, Samuel Murray <samuelmurray@yandex.com> wrote:


Hello everyone

[Reposting as a separate topic because I'm curious about what others think of this idea. Following on Mrs Catlady's suggestion about a separate suggestion feature.]

I would like to propose that opportunity do be given to people to make anonymous suggestions, i.e. make suggestions without revealing their own identity and without feeling a need to be drawn into a discussion about their suggestions.

This feature would take the form of a suggestion box that is linked to from the About page.

However, unlike Mrs Catlady's suggestion of a separate mailing list, I would propose that such anonymous suggestions get sent straight to the beta list.

Such tips would obviously be moderated, so that people can't use the
feature to spam the group anonymously.

The messages can get a special subject line flag [anon] or a hashtag #anonymous to make it clear to group members that it was submitted anonymously, and to make it easier for the developers to find such suggestions' initial posts.

This would allow people to submit RFEs without themselves having to sign up for the beta list, while giving the developers all the benefits of new suggestions being discussed.

The only downside is that proposers would not be able to help clarify their suggestions, but presumably they would not want to do so anyway, even if given the opportunity. In some cases the fact that the original proposer is not there to "defend" his suggestion may even lead to higher quality or more tightly focused discussions in some cases.

Upon clicking the submit button, the anonymous tip giver can then get a
confirmation message on screen, saying that his suggestion was successfully posted to the suggestions mailing list, and that if he is interested in what others think of his suggestion, he can bookmark the link and visit back.

This suggestion does not solve Mrs. Catlady's problem about "ownership" of the idea, but I don't understand the idea of ownership of ideas anyway. If a user really, really wants to "own" his suggestion, he can mail the developers directly.

So, what do you think?

Samuel


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Anonymous suggestion box #suggestion

Samuel Murrayy
 

Hello everyone

[Reposting as a separate topic because I'm curious about what others think of this idea. Following on Mrs Catlady's suggestion about a separate suggestion feature.]

I would like to propose that opportunity do be given to people to make anonymous suggestions, i.e. make suggestions without revealing their own identity and without feeling a need to be drawn into a discussion about their suggestions.

This feature would take the form of a suggestion box that is linked to from the About page.

However, unlike Mrs Catlady's suggestion of a separate mailing list, I would propose that such anonymous suggestions get sent straight to the beta list.

Such tips would obviously be moderated, so that people can't use the
feature to spam the group anonymously.

The messages can get a special subject line flag [anon] or a hashtag #anonymous to make it clear to group members that it was submitted anonymously, and to make it easier for the developers to find such suggestions' initial posts.

This would allow people to submit RFEs without themselves having to sign up for the beta list, while giving the developers all the benefits of new suggestions being discussed.

The only downside is that proposers would not be able to help clarify their suggestions, but presumably they would not want to do so anyway, even if given the opportunity. In some cases the fact that the original proposer is not there to "defend" his suggestion may even lead to higher quality or more tightly focused discussions in some cases.

Upon clicking the submit button, the anonymous tip giver can then get a
confirmation message on screen, saying that his suggestion was successfully posted to the suggestions mailing list, and that if he is interested in what others think of his suggestion, he can bookmark the link and visit back.

This suggestion does not solve Mrs. Catlady's problem about "ownership" of the idea, but I don't understand the idea of ownership of ideas anyway. If a user really, really wants to "own" his suggestion, he can mail the developers directly.

So, what do you think?

Samuel


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

KWKloeber
 


I hope that Mark puts this hapless thread out of its misery, and soon.
HINT:

There wouldn't BE a THREAD if folks didn't continually and continuously respond with snippits and barbs and trying to be Marks Personal Beta Assistant (or would that be Personal Trainer?) 

Let a suggestion stand and then I'm fairly certain that Mark has the mental capacity to understand and pass judgment on it.

If there's something to add to, or clarify, or improve, or is germane generally/genuinely positive to the suggestion, make it, but stop the back and forth, which is BETA BLOAT in itself.  I love when someone says "I'm done" (until of course, they aren't done.) If it's a really dumb (to be defined) suggestion, I don't believe that Mark needs a personal assistant to expain that to him.
(now I'm done LOL)


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

It’s not a “logical fallacy.” He’s said not to argue about the value of a proposed feature. The suggestion box is a proposed feature.

On Apr 3, 2019, at 11:55 AM, Jim Higgins <HigginsJ@sc.rr.com> wrote:

Received from J_Catlady at 4/3/2019 06:13 PM UTC:

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 11:02 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
When that suggestion box is clearly intended to hide suggestions from view so that discussion is impossible, it most certainly does affect us all.
Some users may decide not to give suggestions at all if they can't sometimes do it in a simple way. I'm sure Mark would like to get as many suggestions as possible; or so he has said.

Mark has yet to be heard from on the suggestion of the "suggestion box" you've requested so argument on your part by reference to Mark is a logical fallacy involving misuse of authority. On top of that, there is nothing preventing "beta" from passing as many suggestions to Mark as he would ever be able to read let alone implement. The "suggestion box" you want won't be just another route for passing suggestions to Mark; it's very clearly, based on your own earlier comments, intended to pass along suggestions while hiding them from comment by your peers. When it comes to making suggestions "in a simple way," I guess stifling all other opinions does make it easier to make suggestions... but it also makes it easier for poorly thought out ideas to make it thru to Mark without accompanying comments that point out serious flaws in the original idea or that suggest valuable improvements on the original idea... improvement in this case being to scrap the original idea completely.


You're making a lot of assumptions here about "clearly intended to hide." Yes, I want to hide trivial suggestions that don't affect anyone and that I don't want to get dragged into unnecessary discussions about.

But since we'd never see those suggestions, who but you (and other proposers using that route) determines that they don't affect anyone else?


Other users may not want to join a group like beta.

Other users already belong to a group of some sort, so joining a group obviously isn't a huge problem for them. It only becomes a problem if they make it one by not putting comments made in beta into proper perspective. It could also become extremely annoying and time consuming if they saw every comment as something that needed to be responded to and crushed.


This entire conversation is against Mark's explicit exhortation not to criticize suggestions here. If that can't be followed, I'd say that a suggestion box becomes a necessity.

Circular logic. Because your idea seeks to disenfranchise the opinion of others here it is drawing opposition and because of that opposition the need for the "suggestion box" you suggest is proven? Nonsense! While pure criticism with no intent to seek improvement is wrong, so is the desire to stifle any discussion at all.

Jim H



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

The user owns their idea until they give it to Mark, per the TOU, as I’ve said several times. And the point is that they may decide not to provide it at all to groups.io if they have to do it in this venue.

On Apr 3, 2019, at 11:50 AM, Samuel Murray <samuelmurray@yandex.com> wrote:

On 2019/04/03 07:18 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:15 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
Perhaps... but who is to say that others can't discuss it?
The suggestion belongs to the user.
What an odd thing to say.

The proposer does not "own" his suggestion, even though he may have
spent a lot of time crafting it carefully.

Remember, even if he makes his suggestion privately to the developers,
the developers are likely to discuss it and make it public if they are
to consider it, so any privacy afforded by an anonymous suggestion
feature is very temporary.

I'm tired, very very tired, of this. I wish that I had made this suggestion via a suggestion box.
What you should have done, is make the suggestion, and then not read the
thread for a day or two to allow things to simmer, and then optionally
return to it to clarify one or two things.

Presumably the developers evaluate suggestions not based on how much
support it got from the group or how few objections were raised against
it, but on its own merit.

You don't have to "defend" your suggestion. But if you do, then you
open yourself to discussion.

Samuel


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from J_Catlady at 4/3/2019 06:13 PM UTC:

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 11:02 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
When that suggestion box is clearly intended to hide suggestions from view so that discussion is impossible, it most certainly does affect us all.
Some users may decide not to give suggestions at all if they can't sometimes do it in a simple way. I'm sure Mark would like to get as many suggestions as possible; or so he has said.

Mark has yet to be heard from on the suggestion of the "suggestion box" you've requested so argument on your part by reference to Mark is a logical fallacy involving misuse of authority. On top of that, there is nothing preventing "beta" from passing as many suggestions to Mark as he would ever be able to read let alone implement. The "suggestion box" you want won't be just another route for passing suggestions to Mark; it's very clearly, based on your own earlier comments, intended to pass along suggestions while hiding them from comment by your peers. When it comes to making suggestions "in a simple way," I guess stifling all other opinions does make it easier to make suggestions... but it also makes it easier for poorly thought out ideas to make it thru to Mark without accompanying comments that point out serious flaws in the original idea or that suggest valuable improvements on the original idea... improvement in this case being to scrap the original idea completely.


You're making a lot of assumptions here about "clearly intended to hide." Yes, I want to hide trivial suggestions that don't affect anyone and that I don't want to get dragged into unnecessary discussions about.

But since we'd never see those suggestions, who but you (and other proposers using that route) determines that they don't affect anyone else?


Other users may not want to join a group like beta.

Other users already belong to a group of some sort, so joining a group obviously isn't a huge problem for them. It only becomes a problem if they make it one by not putting comments made in beta into proper perspective. It could also become extremely annoying and time consuming if they saw every comment as something that needed to be responded to and crushed.


This entire conversation is against Mark's explicit exhortation not to criticize suggestions here. If that can't be followed, I'd say that a suggestion box becomes a necessity.

Circular logic. Because your idea seeks to disenfranchise the opinion of others here it is drawing opposition and because of that opposition the need for the "suggestion box" you suggest is proven? Nonsense! While pure criticism with no intent to seek improvement is wrong, so is the desire to stifle any discussion at all.

Jim H


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/04/03 07:18 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:15 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
Perhaps... but who is to say that others can't discuss it?
The suggestion belongs to the user.
What an odd thing to say.

The proposer does not "own" his suggestion, even though he may have
spent a lot of time crafting it carefully.

Remember, even if he makes his suggestion privately to the developers,
the developers are likely to discuss it and make it public if they are
to consider it, so any privacy afforded by an anonymous suggestion
feature is very temporary.

I'm tired, very very tired, of this. I wish that I had made this suggestion via a suggestion box.
What you should have done, is make the suggestion, and then not read the
thread for a day or two to allow things to simmer, and then optionally
return to it to clarify one or two things.

Presumably the developers evaluate suggestions not based on how much
support it got from the group or how few objections were raised against
it, but on its own merit.

You don't have to "defend" your suggestion. But if you do, then you
open yourself to discussion.

Samuel


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

Samuel Murrayy
 

On 2019/04/03 07:01 PM, J_Catlady wrote:

I can see no real argument against a suggestion box for a product.
I was about to respond by saying that that is a good idea -- let there be a link at the bottom of the main page that people can click to send off a quick suggestion.

Then I checked the bottom of the main page to see where the most
appropriate place for such a link would be, and I thought it would be
under "About". And then... then I saw this on the About page:

==
Help Us Improve Groups.io
Have an idea for a feature? Join the Beta group, where we discuss
upcoming features.
==

[[So, it would appear as if the developers' chosen route for suggestions
is to join the beta list and discuss new features. And it makes sense,
because it allows the suggestor to clarify anything that isn't clear, so
that the developers don't have to spend effort clarifying it later.

It appears to me that the suggestion isn't there to solve a problem that
the developers might potentially have, but rather to solve a problem
that the suggestor has. That is why some of us replied by helpfully
pointing out existing ways to solve the suggestor's perceived problem.]]

Some groups.io users either may not want to join beta, some not even
know about it...
Very few RFE systems allow anonymous wishlist posting. In most RFE
systems, you have to at least register in order to submit RFEs. I do
not think it is odd to require this.

..., and some may want to use the "suggestion box" once in awhile for
a very simple suggestion that requires no discussion.
Okay, here's my proposed variation on your suggestion:

If such an anonymous suggestion feature be implemented, I would
recommend that the anonymous tip be sent not to a separate mailing list
but to the beta list itself. This would allow people to submit RFEs
without themselves having to sign up for the beta list, while giving the
developers all the benefits of new suggestions being discussed.

Upon clicking the submit button, the anonymous tip giver can then get a
message saying that his suggestion was successfully posted to the
suggestions mailing list, and that if he is interested in what others
think of his suggestion, he can bookmark the link and visit back.

Such tips would obviously be moderated, so that people can't use the
feature to spam the group anonymously.

I suspect group members would be less eager to respond to anonymous suggestions unless they have something useful to add. So you'll get your wish in the end: if it is truly a very simple suggestion that requires no discussion, then little or no discussion will happen.

If Mark determines that a suggestion dropped into the suggestion box
requires extensive deconstruction on beta, he can always poll users
here about it.
You said this before, but it just seems so backwards to me. It isn't as
if the developers are just sitting there waiting for cool ideas to roll
in, and spend time evaluating each one before posting it to the group.

Having suggestions discussed by default saves everyone time (except
perhaps members who try to read all messages).

It's astounding to me that anyone here would argue against adding
such a feature.
From my perspective, you're essentially arguing for a suggestion feature
that would bypass the scrutiny of the beta group members.

Samuel


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 11:02 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
When that suggestion box is clearly intended to hide suggestions from view so that discussion is impossible, it most certainly does affect us all.
Some users may decide not to give suggestions at all if they can't sometimes do it in a simple way. I'm sure Mark would like to get as many suggestions as possible; or so he has said.

You're making a lot of assumptions here about "clearly intended to hide." Yes, I want to hide trivial suggestions that don't affect anyone and that I don't want to get dragged into unnecessary discussions about. Other users may not want to join a group like beta.

This entire conversation is against Mark's explicit exhortation not to criticize suggestions here. If that can't be followed, I'd say that a suggestion box becomes a necessity.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 06:54 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Adding a "suggestion email box" distinctly does not "affect us all.
It distinctly might, if the suggestion was wrong to start with and Mark did not pick up on that fact. Within the obvious point that some Groups are paid for and others are not, we are all equal as owners and moderators.
In some ways you seem to be asking for something that could result in some being more equal than others.

Beta is certainly something of a rough and tumble, but any idea for a "feature" should be forced to survive in that rough and tumble and not creep in without scrutiny; a really good suggestion will get through unscathed; a potentially good idea not fully thought through will be kicked around and either improved or ditched as appropriate, and the really duff ideas can be kicked into the long grass once and for all.

In the case of one recent suggestion I can think of at least 2 ways of achieving the specified goal without asking Mark for any new "feature". Mark must be nearly driven to distraction with suggestions to fulfil some requirement that can be worked around with a bit of thought.

As a confirmed masochist I actually read posts on this group, but when I see one starting "It would be a good idea if..." I know I'm going to hate it.

Chris


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from J_Catlady at 4/3/2019 05:54 PM UTC:

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:45 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
The argument here against it is sparked by a desire to not be cut out of the discussion of things that potentially affect us all.
Adding a "suggestion email box" distinctly does not "affect us all."

When that suggestion box is clearly intended to hide suggestions from view so that discussion is impossible, it most certainly does affect us all.

Jim H


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

Jim Higgins
 

Received from J_Catlady at 4/3/2019 05:18 PM UTC:

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:15 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
Perhaps... but who is to say that others can't discuss it?
The suggestion belongs to the user. If they decide to give it to Mark or beta, that's their decision.

Agreed so far.


If they put it into the suggestion box, the answer to your question "who" is: Mark. He can always put it out there.

There is no such suggestion box. The debate here is about the creation of one... and I'm on the side that thinks that shielding ideas of change/enhancement from debate is a very bad thing.


I'm tired, very very tired, of this. I wish that I had made this suggestion via a suggestion box. Unfortunately, one does not yet exist. ;)

We do have a "suggestion box." It's called "beta." The suggestion box we don't have is the one where comments on proposed changes are unwelcome. With any luck, that suggestion box will never exist.

Jim H


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:45 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:
The argument here against it is sparked by a desire to not be cut out of the discussion of things that potentially affect us all.
Adding a "suggestion email box" distinctly does not "affect us all."

 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: email addresses for suggesting features offlist from beta #suggestion

 

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 10:32 AM, Duane wrote:
that's seldom the truth.
And yet, sometimes it is. And even when it's not, users own their own unexpressed ideas and should be able to provide them in any way that's most comfortable for them. Assuming Mark wants all ideas, he will be happy to get them. The decision to put an idea out for discussion on a group like this belongs to nobody but the user. The decision does not belong to this group. After they give it to Mark, then it becomes Mark's property (in accordance with the TOU) and Mark's decision.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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