Date   

moderated Re: Reply to Sender

Bruce Bowman
 

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 02:45 PM, Noel Leaver wrote:
I would say what it achieves is rather more than mild discouragement, more hidden so nobody finds it without being told where it is.
Perhaps so. I look at it this way:  Although we group owners are accustomed to using the web interface, I'd say that 80-90% of my subscribers use email only. The "reply-to" fields of all outgoing emails are populated per the group default setting. If the subscriber's email client respects that (a whole other conversation), then clicking on "reply" sends it back that way. To override, they have to manually populate the To: address.

So sending someone a non-default reply to a group email does require jumping through a hoop or two. It seems only appropriate to me that the web interface behave similarly.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Suggestion-calendar feature

Jim Higgins
 

Received from HR Tech via Groups.Io at 3/27/2019 12:46 AM UTC:

I wonder if there is any way for mods to be alerted if a member sets up an event but doesn't check off cal-invite?
Mods could go in and correct that then.

Or for the member to be reminded that they are forgetting to announce their event.

How about a bold red notice in an appropriate place on the cal/event creation page stating the event will not be announced to the group unless the cal-invite checkbox is checked?

As a group owner, I don't want to be alerted to a subscriber's possible mistake when it should be the subscriber who is alerted.

Jim H


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

Noel Leaver
 

Part of the problem I think is for people using a browser on a PC the screen is very wide compared to a phone. On my screen the bright Reply and Discard buttons occupy 5.5 cm on the right of the screen, there is then a gap of over half the screen to the tiny (1.5 cm wide) private button.

 

Incidentally the same screen has a Previous Topic button which is greyed out as I'm on the first topic (though a lighter grey than the Private button).

 

If the Private button were closer to the Reply, for example underneath, it would be easier to notice and to realise it relates to the reply button.

 

Another suggestion. Could "Reply to Sender" appear as an option in the More menu on the message view screen? That is where I first looked for the functionality, and it would be sufficiently obscure people would not click it by accident. Just to take you to the reply screen with Private enabled.

 

Noel


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

Maria
 

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 02:39 PM, Ken Kloeber wrote:
Seems very weird to have a grey button (which yes, means “this doesn’t work”) that does nothing but CHANGE the defaut green “reply to group” button into a blue “reply to sender” button. 
Huh?  How does that make any logical sense. But then again I’m a user, not a developer or coder. 
I'm not a developer, or a coder. But where did this notion that something that is grey is not something that can be clicked ( even though currently not active) come from?
I use many other platforms daily where text in grey is clickable/actionable: twitter, instagram, facebook, reddit, discourse forums, NYTimes, buttons on Amazon.
This is not different in any way to what "folks are accustomed to". If it were, I'd be spending a good chunk of my day helping members with it. Instead here I am :)


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

 

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 11:42 AM, Noel Leaver wrote:
The button says "Reply to Group" for my groups. When I click on the Private button it changes to "Reply to Sende
I think there's an element of confusion with use of the word "button" in this conversation. A "button" is something you can click on; that's the one at right which says "private." After you click on that, the green area at the left of "discard" changes from "reply to group" to "reply to sender." But I would not call that a button.

I wonder whether it's confusing to have an actual clickable button ("discard") next to a non-clickable informational area (the green "reply to group" or "reply to sender" area) but this is probably getting too far afield. I think it is, however, causing or contributing to the mixing up of "private" vs "reply to sender" in this conversation.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

Noel Leaver
 

> The button was set up this way to gently discourage subscribers from using something that was not intended to be the primary reply mode of the group.

 

I would say what it achieves is rather more than mild discouragement, more hidden so nobody finds it without being told where it is.

 

Noel


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

Noel Leaver
 

> Actually, according to my screen readerthe button does say "reply to sender." Does it not say that for you guys?

The button says "Reply to Group" for my groups. When I click on the Private button it changes to "Reply to Sender".

 

Noel


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

KWKloeber
 

Seems very weird to have a grey button (which yes, means “this doesn’t work”) that does nothing but CHANGE the defaut green “reply to group” button into a blue “reply to sender” button. 
Huh?  How does that make any logical sense. But then again I’m a user, not a developer or coder. 

Just like on a site, your account or log in is always upper right; .” Continue” button at the right, many times with an arrow. EXCEPT those who feel it necessary to put “continue” on the left and “account” in a footer.  WHY? be different than folks are accustomed to unless it’s “better”? not just different. 


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

Maria
 

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 01:44 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
1) There is logic to the Private button being grey. It's not active. When you press the button to active a private reply, it changes color. This is in keeping with how other buttons are colored on the site.
 
Yes, and it feels perfect to me as is for that reason.It's greyed out til you activate it - like on other sites.
And as Sarah mentions, once you click to activate it you do get "reply to sender" written on the button that before had "reply to group" or vice-versa.
I get zero complaints about this aspect of the interface on my end for what it's worth.

 
2) We add 'Private:' to the subject line for these responses. When you send a private message to someone via the group directory, we prepend '[DM]' to the subject. Should these both be consistent/the same word? Note also that we look for messages sent to the group that have a subject starting with 'Private:' and bounce those back to the sender. If the word were to be changed, I don't particularly like the word 'Off-list' because I generally like to use the word group instead of list, because Groups.io groups are much more than mailing lists.
I am fine with the way things are.

While Direct Message and Private Message are somewhat used interchangeably, there are subtleties.
I think DM's are DM's when they are not part of a topic. Sent as stand alone direct messages to a member from a member. They are more intimate.
You are essentially starting a conversation where there was none.

Whereas private replies are replies to topics which are sent privately and are in a context of a group discussion/chat.

Also, while you could call them both DM's, that "private" button would look weird and not intuitive if instead of "private" it said "direct" or "DM"  - not everyone knows yet what DM stands for even if it's used freely as a verb these days.

Maria


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

 

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 10:44 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Should these both be consistent/the same word?
Mark,

I have no preference on that.

I did notice that the bouncing of messages whose subject begins with "private" no longer seems to be working. I tested it just now because I vaguely remembered an issue with that. The messages are going straight through. I'll send the example to you at support.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

 

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 10:47 AM, Dave Sergeant wrote:
On groups.io we have set the
default as 'reply to group'
Why don't you set it to "reply to sender"? 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

Dave Sergeant
 

Different groups have very different needs. One of my groups is for
television service repairers. The idea was that someone would post a
help request for a fault on a set. When on Yahoogroups the default was
set for 'reply to sender', anybody who could help with the fault would
discuss directly with the sender. When a fault was worked out they
would post a final 'cure' to the group. On groups.io we have set the
default as 'reply to group' but that really doesn't work as people
cannot work out how to reply to sender so we have a lot of backchat of
no interest to most of us.

On our amateur radio groups there is often a request by somebody like
'please send me your scores, off reflector'. Because they can't work
out how to post direct we end up with a lot of unnecessary stuff via
the group, it turns out not to be 'off reflector'. (by the way in
amateur radio groups we tend to call these group lists 'reflectors',
something that non amateur radio people probably won't understand...).

However it is done, it is vital that reply to sender is easy and
obvious. It is not at present.

Dave

On 27 Mar 2019 at 9:31, Bruce Bowman wrote:

The button was set up this way to gently discourage subscribers from
using something that was not intended to be the primary reply mode of
the group. 

http://davesergeant.com


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

 

Hi All,

A couple of comments, in list form:

1) There is logic to the Private button being grey. It's not active. When you press the button to active a private reply, it changes color. This is in keeping with how other buttons are colored on the site.

2) We add 'Private:' to the subject line for these responses. When you send a private message to someone via the group directory, we prepend '[DM]' to the subject. Should these both be consistent/the same word? Note also that we look for messages sent to the group that have a subject starting with 'Private:' and bounce those back to the sender. If the word were to be changed, I don't particularly like the word 'Off-list' because I generally like to use the word group instead of list, because Groups.io groups are much more than mailing lists.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually, according to my screen readerthe button does say "reply to sender." Does it not say that for you guys?

On 27 Mar 2019, at 10:15, Noel Leaver via Groups.Io wrote:

> Now that I played around with it, I'm OK with how it works, it's just the "Private" isn't very intuitive.  Could it be labeled "Private Reply"  or something like that?  Just thinking out loud.

My issue is that if you ask someone who has not sent a Private reply before to send a reply to sender, many, probably most, will conclude the functionality is not there and so send a message via the group asking for the person's email address. It ought to be a bit clearer that the greyed out Private button does activate this functionality.

I think there are three things combining to make it hard to find on a large screen:

It being in grey means it does not stand out, and why would you press a disabled button which it looks like?

It is way over on the right, a long way from the two buttons you are looking at.

Most people on our group would be familiar with Reply to sender or Off-list reply, but private means little to them.

Noel



moderated Re: Feed view now the default

 

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 10:28 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
I did just make two changes. 
 
- If you visit Muted or Followed Topics, we don't change your remembered home page.
Mark, I think that was probably the issue in my instance of this. I did not explicitly visit Followed Topics but I had to click on a "confirm" page to unfollow a topic, which may have somehow been part of that page. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Feed view now the default

 

Hi All,

I'm not able to reproduce any issues with this. If you see something, please send a message to support with the steps to recreate.

I did just make two changes. 

- If you visit Muted or Followed Topics, we don't change your remembered home page.
- We now remember the calendar page and return to that if it's the last 'home' page you visited.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

 

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 10:21 AM, Noel Leaver wrote:
On our group it is probably something a member uses once or twice a year. That is infrequent enough that you don't get used to it.
Noel, I agree 100% with you that making the "private" button more obvious (preferably, before the message composition box), and possibly changing the name of it as you've suggested, are preferable. I just skimmed (and posted) the prior threads and can find no explicit reason why it was done the current way and hasn't been changed. It's possible that Bruce unearthed the reason from somewhere, and/or that his guess on why Mark implemented it the way he did is correct, or that I missed something in those threads, but I'm not seeing it. So maybe this can be revisited. Either way, I'm with you on this. 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

Noel Leaver
 

> If you did it more often you'd quickly get used to it. This is one of those things that people learn the first time around. But it could benefit from some user documentation for sure.

On our group it is probably something a member uses once or twice a year. That is infrequent enough that you don't get used to it.

Noel

 


On 27 March 2019 14:26:56 GMT, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 07:19 AM, Barbara Byers wrote:
I hardly ever use the web interface to send messages
If you did it more often you'd quickly get used to it. This is one of those things that people learn the first time around. But it could benefit from some user documentation for sure.
 


moderated Re: Reply to Sender

Noel Leaver
 

> Now that I played around with it, I'm OK with how it works, it's just the "Private" isn't very intuitive.  Could it be labeled "Private Reply"  or something like that?  Just thinking out loud.

My issue is that if you ask someone who has not sent a Private reply before to send a reply to sender, many, probably most, will conclude the functionality is not there and so send a message via the group asking for the person's email address. It ought to be a bit clearer that the greyed out Private button does activate this functionality.

I think there are three things combining to make it hard to find on a large screen:

It being in grey means it does not stand out, and why would you press a disabled button which it looks like?

It is way over on the right, a long way from the two buttons you are looking at.

Most people on our group would be familiar with Reply to sender or Off-list reply, but private means little to them.

Noel



moderated Re: Reply to Sender

Maria
 

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 12:31 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
The button was set up this way to gently discourage subscribers from using something that was not intended to be the primary reply mode of the group. 
Yes. That too. You are right. It does help with the culture of a group and as a guide to preferred reply method.

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