Date   

locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

Mark,

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io
user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly
subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step
and could receive email from the group without being opted-in.
Except in the case of your address being spoofed, I think it would be fair to conclude that your message itself constitutes opting-in for replies to that message. Otherwise what was the point?

Messages that pass SPF and/or DKIM I think you can accept as non-spoofed. For the rest, you may be right to immediately return an email confirmation message.

On a related note:
"Make the subscribe, unsubscribe, and other email commands reliable"
https://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/5806836

-- Shal


locked Re: about messages from non-members

Cherrill <cdjamieson@...>
 

I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark


locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

Mark,

It'll be a nice break from working on the calendar/event code, which is
a bit mind numbing with lots of little fiddly bits.
Heh. Books full of fiddly bits.

A couple of questions: as a moderator, do you want to see these
'temporary subscriptions'?
Yes, I would definitely want them listed (and of course activity logged). Probably in the main Members list so I don't have to remember to check for them separately. Maybe with some kind of indication that they came about this way. And sortable (or searchable) so we can find them; perhaps a unique value for the Delivery column.

And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?
Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).

In a group with Restricted membership the "instant" member would require approval to convert to a regular membership.

-- Shal


locked Re: First email in thread plus digest

 

I realized after I went to bed last night that I was wrong.. It does not currently work close to what your son wants. If set to receive the first message only and on digest, those messages will go to the digest, and not directly out. What your son wants doesn't exist at the moment. I'm concerned that Groups.io is complicated enough as is, so let me ponder if it makes sense to add a new setting.

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 9:51 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
Hi Frances,

It almost exactly works like that right now. When your subscription is set to receive only the first message in a thread, if you later click the follow thread link for that thread, any/all missed messages in that thread are sent to you, individually, at that time, so you don't miss any of the conversation. After that, if you've checked the digest checkbox, any additional messages in that thread are sent as a nightly digest (or after 25 messages occur, whichever comes first).

I had not thought about it, but maybe I should change the behavior when you first click the follow thread link. If you're on digest, maybe you shouldn't get the batch of messages at that point, and they should be digested, as in your son's original suggestion. What do you think? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:
My son who boycotts our family Yahoogroups suggests this:
He would like to be able to set up preferences so that he receives the first post in any thread to the groups he subscribes to - automatically and right away. After that any responses to that thread would be digested for delivery once a day.
He finds that he feels obliged to silence his Blackberry if there is too much traffic especially while at work.
Getting the digest would give him the option of going to the website if he wishes.

Frances


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locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

I really like this idea. I don't think it'll be difficult, because it's just like a user who is set to replies only. Let me spec something up. It'll be a nice break from working on the calendar/event code, which is a bit mind numbing with lots of little fiddly bits.

A couple of questions: as a moderator, do you want to see these 'temporary subscriptions'? And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Thanks,
Mark


On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Chris Leong <walkraft@...> wrote:

That does seem like a common use case. If the workflow around this could be simplified, then it could be group for advice groups.



locked Re: about using email-commands

 

I was not aware of the Auto-Submitted header. I'll add code to drop any message received containing that field set to either 'auto-generated' or 'auto-replied'. Back in the ONElist days, I hard-coded a list of subject lines to look for from autoresponders. I don't have that now (no recent examples), but I will do something similar when it comes up.

I'm also hesitant to make the email commands any more difficult. It's hard enough for people to opt-in to something they want just by replying. 

Thanks,
Mark


On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 1:23 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:
Ronaldo,

> Could you make it so that people would need a slightly modified reply
> to confirm they want to be a member or to approve a moderated message?

If the addressee's email service follows RFC3834 it would be possible to distinguish an auto response from a manual one. In particular there is an Auto-Submitted field which the responder SHOULD include the header of the response.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3834

That may need some thought in regard to Invitations, as those will be sent at times to email services with unknown conformance to standards. But for the major services I'd rather not unnecessarily make it any harder for the invitee than a simple reply.

And in the case of notifications to moderators, I _really_ don't want it made any more complicated than reply and send. Here some responsibility can be put on the moderator not to choose and configure his/her email service so as to avoid auto-response problems.

-- Shal



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locked Re: First email in thread plus digest

 

Hi Frances,

It almost exactly works like that right now. When your subscription is set to receive only the first message in a thread, if you later click the follow thread link for that thread, any/all missed messages in that thread are sent to you, individually, at that time, so you don't miss any of the conversation. After that, if you've checked the digest checkbox, any additional messages in that thread are sent as a nightly digest (or after 25 messages occur, whichever comes first).

I had not thought about it, but maybe I should change the behavior when you first click the follow thread link. If you're on digest, maybe you shouldn't get the batch of messages at that point, and they should be digested, as in your son's original suggestion. What do you think? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:
My son who boycotts our family Yahoogroups suggests this:
He would like to be able to set up preferences so that he receives the first post in any thread to the groups he subscribes to - automatically and right away. After that any responses to that thread would be digested for delivery once a day.
He finds that he feels obliged to silence his Blackberry if there is too much traffic especially while at work.
Getting the digest would give him the option of going to the website if he wishes.

Frances


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locked Re: Roadmap

 

Chris,

Although initially, a service that utilises private URLs might be sufficient.
Like Flickr's Guest Pass? Yes, that could work.

Then the trick would be to let the "integration" display the referenced photo(s) in a natural way for the members, rather than them having to click through to the photo sharing site. A large step better than putting private URLs in a Links list.

-- Shal


locked Re: Roadmap

 

Good point. Although initially, a service that utilises private URLs might be sufficient. It depends heavily on the nature of the groups though.


locked Re: Roadmap

 

Chris,

Photos/Wiki being external is less of a pain than other features because
people will most often just want to view the content and hence don't
need to log in.
That depends strongly on the nature of the group and its members. In many cases access control is a key component of using the feature - just as with the message archives.
People don't necessarily want to share their photos with the world, or their comments on those photos.

-- Shal


locked Re: Roadmap

 

I think when deciding what features to add that it might be worth considering inconvenient it will be for people to emulate those features if you don't provide them.

For most of those features, the disadvantages are that you need to make an extra click and that you need to log in. One way to make external tools easier to use would be to allow people to add extra links in the sidebar.

Photos/Wiki being external is less of a pain than other features because people will most often just want to view the content and hence don't need to log in. However, with polls, people will typically be responding.

With some of these features, you may be able to integrate in a third party tool, rather than writing it yourself. Since this would be so much quicker, these integrations might deserve a higher priority.


locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

That does seem like a common use case. If the workflow around this could be simplified, then it could be group for advice groups.


locked First email in thread plus digest

Frances
 

My son who boycotts our family Yahoogroups suggests this:
He would like to be able to set up preferences so that he receives the first post in any thread to the groups he subscribes to - automatically and right away. After that any responses to that thread would be digested for delivery once a day.
He finds that he feels obliged to silence his Blackberry if there is too much traffic especially while at work.
Getting the digest would give him the option of going to the website if he wishes.

Frances


locked Re: Roadmap

 

Thanks Shal.

That might work for us as long as it was searchable.  

We do have our current links broken down into subfolders by category.

Trish

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:02 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:
Trish,

> I'm not understanding how you feel a wiki could replace links.

Fundamentally Wiki pages are rich text pages which can edited by site users. In the case of a group, that would mean the group members (if permitted).

So, members could write descriptions and include links with those descriptions. So a collection of links could be written as just a list of paragraphs, each with a link in it. An additional wiki page, linked on this page, serves as a "sub-folder" and provides a way to organize the links into collections.

But where a simple wiki falls short compared to the kind of links feature Yahoo Groups has is in the organization of the links - in a simple wiki it would all be manual, no sort by contribution date, versus alphabetic by title, versus "who". Likewise, the access control is all or nothing - if members can edit the wiki they can edit anyone else's supplied links as well as their own.

-- Shal



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locked Re: Roadmap

 

Trish,

I'm not understanding how you feel a wiki could replace links.
Fundamentally Wiki pages are rich text pages which can edited by site users. In the case of a group, that would mean the group members (if permitted).

So, members could write descriptions and include links with those descriptions. So a collection of links could be written as just a list of paragraphs, each with a link in it. An additional wiki page, linked on this page, serves as a "sub-folder" and provides a way to organize the links into collections.

But where a simple wiki falls short compared to the kind of links feature Yahoo Groups has is in the organization of the links - in a simple wiki it would all be manual, no sort by contribution date, versus alphabetic by title, versus "who". Likewise, the access control is all or nothing - if members can edit the wiki they can edit anyone else's supplied links as well as their own.

-- Shal


locked Re: about messages from non-members

 

Ronaldo,

This feature would make groups consultable. Of course messages from
non-member should always be moderated. Ideally, the entire thread that
results should be sent to the person who started it (unless a moderator
prevents that).
Oh, that's an interesting thought. Sort-of a temporary membership, subscribed only to that person's own thread. That could revolutionize how some help and advice groups operate. Even Freecycle/Freegle types.

And of course the replies in that conversation contain the footer info that make it easy for this person to formally join the group.

-- Shal


locked Re: about using email-commands

 

Ronaldo,

Could you make it so that people would need a slightly modified reply
to confirm they want to be a member or to approve a moderated message?
If the addressee's email service follows RFC3834 it would be possible to distinguish an auto response from a manual one. In particular there is an Auto-Submitted field which the responder SHOULD include the header of the response.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3834

That may need some thought in regard to Invitations, as those will be sent at times to email services with unknown conformance to standards. But for the major services I'd rather not unnecessarily make it any harder for the invitee than a simple reply.

And in the case of notifications to moderators, I _really_ don't want it made any more complicated than reply and send. Here some responsibility can be put on the moderator not to choose and configure his/her email service so as to avoid auto-response problems.

-- Shal


locked Re: Roadmap

 

whofanvidme,

One solution would be to allow for several links to appear within a
single entry. It could have a main entry, the text of which would form
the basis of its alphabetical listing, and sub-links which would
automatically translate themselves into icons for things like facebook
and twitter.
Having each link entry consist of a description text plus an expandable list of links is not a bad idea. It neatly handles the case of a few related links without having to go to the formality of making a folder and putting the related links inside.

Another way to achieve this would be to allow the link description text to be rich text. Then users could put sub-links into the description, as text or as images, with no additional structure needed. Or less ambitiously, auto-linkify any URLs written into a plain-text description.

-- Shal


locked Re: Roadmap

 

The requirements in relation to structuring links will vary enormously from one
group to another. I would suggest simple links with associated (limited)
explanatory text, but with the addition of an owner/moderator-defined structure
along the lines of Yahoo's hierarchy of photo albums. Groups with limited need
for just a few links (like my own on Yahoo) would then not need any
structuring, but it would be available for others who need it.

Remember that links are not necessarily to sites (or sub-sites like blogs and
other social media) operated by members, but can be any site related to the
group's objects.

I think it would be a mistake not to make links clickable - that would just
make them more difficult to use, with no obvious benefit.

Jim Fisher

On 1 Nov 2014 at 1:11, whofanvidme@zoho.com wrote:

Here's my idea for an improved links section layout. I was going to
post it to the Yahoo! suggestion board, but I suspect it would gain
more traction here.
Back when Yahoo! Groups was created, people tended to only have a
basic web presence. These days, they're just as likely to have
multiple links for twitter, facebook, pinterest, youtube, etc. This
leads to problems when trying to generate a usable links section. Do
you create separate folders for each platform, forcing members to
constantly switch, or create a lot of redundant entries in the main
folder for people to plow through?
One solution would be to allow for several links to appear within a
single entry. It could have a main entry, the text of which would form
the basis of its alphabetical listing, and sub-links which would
automatically translate themselves into icons for things like facebook
and twitter. These would then appear as clickable icons next to the
main entry and, possibly, in text form at the bottom of the entry.
Main Link (facebook)(twitter)(pinterest)(YouTube), etc.
Another idea would be to make Main Link a text-only descriptor,
instead of a clickable link.


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