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locked Re: about messages from non-members

Cherrill <cdjamieson@...>
 

okay thank you
sorry that I don't understand most of the technical stuff, 
Cherrill





On Nov 3, 2014, at 2:23 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Of course.  There will never be a situation where you can't control who's in your group and what gets sent to it.

Thanks,
Mark

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
is this a feature I can turn off the moment its implemented, because I don't want people who are not members to send any emails to my group. 
If they want to be a member, they should join the proper way.

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 2:08 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Cherrill,

If I add this feature, it will be something you can turn on or off. Here's how it would work (if turned on for your group):

A non-member sends a message to your group
It looks like a pending message to you, ie. you'll get a notification that you need to approve or reject it
If you approve it, the person is given an 'instant subscription' to your group and is set to receive only replies to their message
You will be able to see these instant subscriptions in your member list, and can unsubscribe or ban these people

A couple of things I haven't figured out yet:

There will be some mechanism to convert these instant subscriptions to normal subscriptions, which may very depending on whether the group is restricted or not (ie. requires approval before joining the group)
Does the user have to confirm their subscription or not?

Make sense? Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Mark


On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark
locked Re: about messages from non-members

Mark Fletcher
 

Of course.  There will never be a situation where you can't control who's in your group and what gets sent to it.

Thanks,
Mark

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
is this a feature I can turn off the moment its implemented, because I don't want people who are not members to send any emails to my group. 
If they want to be a member, they should join the proper way.

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 2:08 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Cherrill,

If I add this feature, it will be something you can turn on or off. Here's how it would work (if turned on for your group):

A non-member sends a message to your group
It looks like a pending message to you, ie. you'll get a notification that you need to approve or reject it
If you approve it, the person is given an 'instant subscription' to your group and is set to receive only replies to their message
You will be able to see these instant subscriptions in your member list, and can unsubscribe or ban these people

A couple of things I haven't figured out yet:

There will be some mechanism to convert these instant subscriptions to normal subscriptions, which may very depending on whether the group is restricted or not (ie. requires approval before joining the group)
Does the user have to confirm their subscription or not?

Make sense? Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Mark


On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark
locked Re: about messages from non-members

Cherrill <cdjamieson@...>
 

is this a feature I can turn off the moment its implemented, because I don't want people who are not members to send any emails to my group. 
If they want to be a member, they should join the proper way.

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 2:08 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Cherrill,

If I add this feature, it will be something you can turn on or off. Here's how it would work (if turned on for your group):

A non-member sends a message to your group
It looks like a pending message to you, ie. you'll get a notification that you need to approve or reject it
If you approve it, the person is given an 'instant subscription' to your group and is set to receive only replies to their message
You will be able to see these instant subscriptions in your member list, and can unsubscribe or ban these people

A couple of things I haven't figured out yet:

There will be some mechanism to convert these instant subscriptions to normal subscriptions, which may very depending on whether the group is restricted or not (ie. requires approval before joining the group)
Does the user have to confirm their subscription or not?

Make sense? Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Mark


On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark
locked Re: about messages from non-members

Mark Fletcher
 

Cherrill,

If I add this feature, it will be something you can turn on or off. Here's how it would work (if turned on for your group):

A non-member sends a message to your group
It looks like a pending message to you, ie. you'll get a notification that you need to approve or reject it
If you approve it, the person is given an 'instant subscription' to your group and is set to receive only replies to their message
You will be able to see these instant subscriptions in your member list, and can unsubscribe or ban these people

A couple of things I haven't figured out yet:

There will be some mechanism to convert these instant subscriptions to normal subscriptions, which may very depending on whether the group is restricted or not (ie. requires approval before joining the group)
Does the user have to confirm their subscription or not?

Make sense? Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Mark


On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Cherrill <cdjamieson@...> wrote:
I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark
locked Re: about messages from non-members

Shal Farley
 

Mark,

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io
user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly
subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step
and could receive email from the group without being opted-in.
Except in the case of your address being spoofed, I think it would be fair to conclude that your message itself constitutes opting-in for replies to that message. Otherwise what was the point?

Messages that pass SPF and/or DKIM I think you can accept as non-spoofed. For the rest, you may be right to immediately return an email confirmation message.

On a related note:
"Make the subscribe, unsubscribe, and other email commands reliable"
https://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/5806836

-- Shal
locked Re: about messages from non-members

Cherrill <cdjamieson@...>
 

I have a question about this because I am not sure I understand.

I own a group here so does this mean that someone who isn't a member of my group can send an email to my group via instant subscription.  

Cherrill
I've learned that being kind is more important than being right.




On Nov 3, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark
locked Re: about messages from non-members

Mark Fletcher
 

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:

> And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).


I like instant subscriptions.

Here's a possible hitch I've come up with. If you are not a Groups.io user at all, and send a message to a group and are instantly subscribed, you've effectively bypassed the email confirmation step and could receive email from the group without being opted-in. Do I have a confirmation step in there somewhere? Am I worrying too much about this?

Thanks,
Mark
locked Re: about messages from non-members

Shal Farley
 

Mark,

It'll be a nice break from working on the calendar/event code, which is
a bit mind numbing with lots of little fiddly bits.
Heh. Books full of fiddly bits.

A couple of questions: as a moderator, do you want to see these
'temporary subscriptions'?
Yes, I would definitely want them listed (and of course activity logged). Probably in the main Members list so I don't have to remember to check for them separately. Maybe with some kind of indication that they came about this way. And sortable (or searchable) so we can find them; perhaps a unique value for the Delivery column.

And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?
Perhaps "instant subscriptions". It has a more positive connotation, and doesn't imply a time limit where there is none (they're limited to a thread, which may continue indefinitely). Or "reply-only subscriptions", which is descriptive (but a bit of a mouthful).

In a group with Restricted membership the "instant" member would require approval to convert to a regular membership.

-- Shal
locked Re: First email in thread plus digest

Mark Fletcher
 

I realized after I went to bed last night that I was wrong.. It does not currently work close to what your son wants. If set to receive the first message only and on digest, those messages will go to the digest, and not directly out. What your son wants doesn't exist at the moment. I'm concerned that Groups.io is complicated enough as is, so let me ponder if it makes sense to add a new setting.

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 9:51 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
Hi Frances,

It almost exactly works like that right now. When your subscription is set to receive only the first message in a thread, if you later click the follow thread link for that thread, any/all missed messages in that thread are sent to you, individually, at that time, so you don't miss any of the conversation. After that, if you've checked the digest checkbox, any additional messages in that thread are sent as a nightly digest (or after 25 messages occur, whichever comes first).

I had not thought about it, but maybe I should change the behavior when you first click the follow thread link. If you're on digest, maybe you shouldn't get the batch of messages at that point, and they should be digested, as in your son's original suggestion. What do you think? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:
My son who boycotts our family Yahoogroups suggests this:
He would like to be able to set up preferences so that he receives the first post in any thread to the groups he subscribes to - automatically and right away. After that any responses to that thread would be digested for delivery once a day.
He finds that he feels obliged to silence his Blackberry if there is too much traffic especially while at work.
Getting the digest would give him the option of going to the website if he wishes.

Frances


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locked Re: about messages from non-members

Mark Fletcher
 

I really like this idea. I don't think it'll be difficult, because it's just like a user who is set to replies only. Let me spec something up. It'll be a nice break from working on the calendar/event code, which is a bit mind numbing with lots of little fiddly bits.

A couple of questions: as a moderator, do you want to see these 'temporary subscriptions'? And what should we call these? Temporary subscriptions?

Thanks,
Mark


On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Chris Leong <walkraft@...> wrote:

That does seem like a common use case. If the workflow around this could be simplified, then it could be group for advice groups.
locked Re: about using email-commands

Mark Fletcher
 

I was not aware of the Auto-Submitted header. I'll add code to drop any message received containing that field set to either 'auto-generated' or 'auto-replied'. Back in the ONElist days, I hard-coded a list of subject lines to look for from autoresponders. I don't have that now (no recent examples), but I will do something similar when it comes up.

I'm also hesitant to make the email commands any more difficult. It's hard enough for people to opt-in to something they want just by replying. 

Thanks,
Mark


On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 1:23 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:
Ronaldo,

> Could you make it so that people would need a slightly modified reply
> to confirm they want to be a member or to approve a moderated message?

If the addressee's email service follows RFC3834 it would be possible to distinguish an auto response from a manual one. In particular there is an Auto-Submitted field which the responder SHOULD include the header of the response.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3834

That may need some thought in regard to Invitations, as those will be sent at times to email services with unknown conformance to standards. But for the major services I'd rather not unnecessarily make it any harder for the invitee than a simple reply.

And in the case of notifications to moderators, I _really_ don't want it made any more complicated than reply and send. Here some responsibility can be put on the moderator not to choose and configure his/her email service so as to avoid auto-response problems.

-- Shal



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locked Re: First email in thread plus digest

Mark Fletcher
 

Hi Frances,

It almost exactly works like that right now. When your subscription is set to receive only the first message in a thread, if you later click the follow thread link for that thread, any/all missed messages in that thread are sent to you, individually, at that time, so you don't miss any of the conversation. After that, if you've checked the digest checkbox, any additional messages in that thread are sent as a nightly digest (or after 25 messages occur, whichever comes first).

I had not thought about it, but maybe I should change the behavior when you first click the follow thread link. If you're on digest, maybe you shouldn't get the batch of messages at that point, and they should be digested, as in your son's original suggestion. What do you think? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Frances <travel@...> wrote:
My son who boycotts our family Yahoogroups suggests this:
He would like to be able to set up preferences so that he receives the first post in any thread to the groups he subscribes to - automatically and right away. After that any responses to that thread would be digested for delivery once a day.
He finds that he feels obliged to silence his Blackberry if there is too much traffic especially while at work.
Getting the digest would give him the option of going to the website if he wishes.

Frances


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locked Re: Roadmap

Shal Farley
 

Chris,

Although initially, a service that utilises private URLs might be sufficient.
Like Flickr's Guest Pass? Yes, that could work.

Then the trick would be to let the "integration" display the referenced photo(s) in a natural way for the members, rather than them having to click through to the photo sharing site. A large step better than putting private URLs in a Links list.

-- Shal
locked Re: Roadmap

Chris Leong
 

Good point. Although initially, a service that utilises private URLs might be sufficient. It depends heavily on the nature of the groups though.
locked Re: Roadmap

Shal Farley
 

Chris,

Photos/Wiki being external is less of a pain than other features because
people will most often just want to view the content and hence don't
need to log in.
That depends strongly on the nature of the group and its members. In many cases access control is a key component of using the feature - just as with the message archives.
People don't necessarily want to share their photos with the world, or their comments on those photos.

-- Shal
locked Re: Roadmap

Chris Leong
 

I think when deciding what features to add that it might be worth considering inconvenient it will be for people to emulate those features if you don't provide them.

For most of those features, the disadvantages are that you need to make an extra click and that you need to log in. One way to make external tools easier to use would be to allow people to add extra links in the sidebar.

Photos/Wiki being external is less of a pain than other features because people will most often just want to view the content and hence don't need to log in. However, with polls, people will typically be responding.

With some of these features, you may be able to integrate in a third party tool, rather than writing it yourself. Since this would be so much quicker, these integrations might deserve a higher priority.
locked Re: about messages from non-members

Chris Leong
 

That does seem like a common use case. If the workflow around this could be simplified, then it could be group for advice groups.
locked First email in thread plus digest

Frances
 

My son who boycotts our family Yahoogroups suggests this:
He would like to be able to set up preferences so that he receives the first post in any thread to the groups he subscribes to - automatically and right away. After that any responses to that thread would be digested for delivery once a day.
He finds that he feels obliged to silence his Blackberry if there is too much traffic especially while at work.
Getting the digest would give him the option of going to the website if he wishes.

Frances
locked Re: Roadmap

Trish
 

Thanks Shal.

That might work for us as long as it was searchable.  

We do have our current links broken down into subfolders by category.

Trish

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:02 PM, Shal Farley <shal@...> wrote:
Trish,

> I'm not understanding how you feel a wiki could replace links.

Fundamentally Wiki pages are rich text pages which can edited by site users. In the case of a group, that would mean the group members (if permitted).

So, members could write descriptions and include links with those descriptions. So a collection of links could be written as just a list of paragraphs, each with a link in it. An additional wiki page, linked on this page, serves as a "sub-folder" and provides a way to organize the links into collections.

But where a simple wiki falls short compared to the kind of links feature Yahoo Groups has is in the organization of the links - in a simple wiki it would all be manual, no sort by contribution date, versus alphabetic by title, versus "who". Likewise, the access control is all or nothing - if members can edit the wiki they can edit anyone else's supplied links as well as their own.

-- Shal



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locked Re: Roadmap

Shal Farley
 

Trish,

I'm not understanding how you feel a wiki could replace links.
Fundamentally Wiki pages are rich text pages which can edited by site users. In the case of a group, that would mean the group members (if permitted).

So, members could write descriptions and include links with those descriptions. So a collection of links could be written as just a list of paragraphs, each with a link in it. An additional wiki page, linked on this page, serves as a "sub-folder" and provides a way to organize the links into collections.

But where a simple wiki falls short compared to the kind of links feature Yahoo Groups has is in the organization of the links - in a simple wiki it would all be manual, no sort by contribution date, versus alphabetic by title, versus "who". Likewise, the access control is all or nothing - if members can edit the wiki they can edit anyone else's supplied links as well as their own.

-- Shal
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