Date   

moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

Chris,

We then have the rather silly situation whereby the NC status remains
even if the Pending Subscription message gets a proper response.
That's an interesting suggestion.

Perhaps the Pending Subscription notice could somehow be used as an alternative to the address confirmation email. I'm not sure what it would take to do that, I think the From (or Reply-To) address in the address confirmation email is specially coded to be unique to the recipient. Something like that might be needed to do this with the Pending Subscription notice.

Shal


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

Bruce,

That makes sense. I knew I'd heard of some similar scenarios. So I think a category of group that requires a response to a questionnaire might make sense at some point, and could bypass the confirmation email.

Yes, the web questionnaire a la yahoo has been requested over and over again since Day One and I know Mark put it on trello at some point. He had a great idea where the questionnaire responses would automatically be loaded into a group-specified database etc. It was a beautiful pie-in-the-sky scheme. :-) 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 02:51 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
"Wait. What earthly good does having a restricted group do if you don't require at least some information from the applicant?" Maybe some groups just google the email address or something? 
In my main group, you have to join the parent organization (and pay dues) before you are allowed to participate in the discussions. We use the Pending Subscription notice to notify people of this ("please wait while we check our member list"), and to redirect non-members to our web site (where they can download an application).

I suspect there are many other possible scenarios. 

A Yahoo-like questionnaire function that stores user responses has been an often-requested feature. That seems to have been fallen by the wayside. It's nice that folks have found a way to use the Pending Subscription notification to compensate, but...

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Bounce History

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 12:40 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
Posts crossed, just saw Brian’s. Brian, are EarthLink and mindspring somehow the same? I did have one bouncing mindspring member unbounce after I sent a bounce probe.
Earthlink has a list of their related domains on their email support pages. There are quite a few, including mindspring.

https://support.earthlink.net/articles/email/earthlink-email-and-server-settings-by-domain-name.php
 
--
Gerald


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 11:07 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
A bare application contains no information
Right, Chris, right after my last post I realized the same thing and hit myself over the head, thinking, "Wait. What earthly good does having a restricted group do if you don't require at least some information from the applicant?" Maybe some groups just google the email address or something? 
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: With regard to Groups.io being blacklisted

 

Brian, True about water under the bridge! And that was possibly very helpful. Just wanted you to know.


On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 11:03 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
J,

            So much water passes under the bridge in beta, and sometimes at whitewater speed, that there is no way I can keep up with it all seeing as I'm a drop in-drop out reader of beta.

            I know that Mark will not take offense (I hope) at an attempt at assisting, however late and misguided it may have been.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 05:52 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
A response is neither necessary nor desirable.
I would have to disagree there. A bare application contains no information on which a moderator can make a decision about whether or not to admit an applicant to membership. It is only only the basis of an applicant's response to the Pending Subsciption message that a go/no go determination can be made, especially if the P/S message specifically requests further and better particulars from the applicant.

Without that exchange the P/S message ceases to have any meaningful purpose.

Chrsi


moderated Re: With regard to Groups.io being blacklisted

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

J,

            So much water passes under the bridge in beta, and sometimes at whitewater speed, that there is no way I can keep up with it all seeing as I'm a drop in-drop out reader of beta.

            I know that Mark will not take offense (I hope) at an attempt at assisting, however late and misguided it may have been.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


moderated Re: With regard to Groups.io being blacklisted

 

Mark has referred to DMARC here so many times that I'd be stunned if he's not already doing everything necessary to pass. (Caveat, I am clueless about all DMARC issues. Just pointing that out. :)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated With regard to Groups.io being blacklisted

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

This message is mostly aimed at Mark.   A user on one of the blind technology groups I moderate made the following two posts, and given what I know about e-mail under the hood I suspect they may have merit.   If they don't, that's fine, but it's always worth passing along something that may be able to help resolve this recurring issue.  There is a lot of overlap between the two messages, but I'm still including both below.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It may be possible that groups.io isn't being blacklisted
per say, but it's just not clearing the security filters of earthlinks
mail servers. I'm not a member of a google group or a yahoo group, so
I couldn't test their mail servers. I did however, find the groups.io
mail servers don't pass DMARC security protocols. The SPF record and
DKIM records did pass, however,
many sysadmins are using DMARC as the new gold standard for mail
security. If someone could check the headers of a google or yahoo
group email and check to see if they pass the DMARC test, it would let
us know if this is fixable, or would your idea of having earthlink
white list all of groups.io be a better approach to solving this
issue. If someone at groups.io looks at the following, it may shed
some light on the problem at hand.

for a DKIM alignment to pass, the "From" domain must match the "d="
domain of the DKIM signature.
The "d=" domain is: groups.io
The "From" domain is: gmail.com

For the SPF alignment to pass the "Return-path" domain must match the
"From" domain.
The "Return-Path" domain is: groups.io
The "From" domain is: google.com

One or both of those need to match in order for DMARC to pass. Now, we
are talking about a listserv, so I'm not exactly sure on how to go
about correcting this problem, or if it can be fixed at all, but I
wanted to throw it out there for you to investigate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't mean to disagree with you and Joseph or for that
matter, defend the actions of these large companies and their
practices. I only ment to point out this may be fixable from the
groups.io side of the fence. DMARC standards have been adopted because
of their ability to eliminate "spoofing' and other fraud perpetrated
by spammers to send, what looks like legitimate email, but in
actuality is just some type of scam or spam. Groups.io has accurately
posted the SPF record and DKIM key pairs, but there's no DMARC record
on file. Without a DMARC record explaining their mailing systems
explicitly, they are considered out of alignment. The groups.io
webmasters could create this .txt record and apply it to the DNS
record to show these hyper-active spam filters that all groups.io mail
is legitimate and should be passed through. Creating a DMARC record is
not too difficult, especially since a blind guy on a tech list has
done it dozens of times, lol. Anyway, without knowing the details of
how their servers are set up I can only speculate as to the reasons
why they don't give this a try. It I know some folks on the list have
had success twisting arms and getting some companies to do the right
thing, but I've never had any myself, so I thought I'd throw in an
alternate suggestion on how to stop this from happening. Hope this
message doesn't sound like I'm trying to undermine your efforts, that
isn't my intention.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 

     I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.

           ~ Jay Gould, U.S. financier & railroad robber baron (1836 - 1892)


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:55 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
a way to distinguish between the groups that require a response to a pending notice and those that don't.
In fact there's not even any terminology yet to refer to those two categories. Maybe (at some point, as part of an overall re-design) there could be a new setting to indicate that the group requires a response to a pending notification (possibly better-termed a "questionnaire" or whatever). For those groups, the questionnaire would be sent out immediately and the confirmation email could be dispensed with.  You'd have to come up with a name for the setting. ETc.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:52 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
The incorrect assumption here is that the Pending Subscription notice consists of some kind of questionnaire. 
Hey Bruce, I'm not assuming that at all. I was distinguishing "pending response required" groups from "non pending-response-required" groups. And that's precisely the issue I mentioned: there's currently no way set up to distinguish between those. There's a way to see which groups have an active pending notice and which ones don't, but as you point out, that's not the issue.

So what I was suggesting (as only part of cleaning up the current mess) is the possibility of a way to distinguish between the groups that require a response to a pending notice and those that don't.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 12:09 PM, Chris Jones wrote:
We then have the rather silly situation whereby the NC status remains even if the Pending Subscription message gets a proper response.
The incorrect assumption here is that the Pending Subscription notice consists of some kind of questionnaire. In the case of my primary group, this notice is nothing more than a notification that we are reviewing their application. A response is neither necessary nor desirable.

Regards,
Bruce


moderated Re: Bounce History

 

LOL 😊


On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 9:35 AM Bob Bellizzi <cdfexec@...> wrote:
Don't feel bad about being dated.  Earthink was my 4th.  Mindspring was my 3rd hosting service after the 2nd one quit to go into another business.  Before that there was a strange outfit at the top of the Knight-Ridder bldg in San Jose called something like Internet Condos or kinda like that in 19 and 96. <lol>
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:34 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
if they don't also return the confirmation email they don't even show up in the pending list! (Still scratching my head around that one and will try to run a test today
Or, more hopefully, the pending notice isn't sent until after they confirm. So scratch that.
In fact i will try to write up some documentation for the current state of this whole thing, without judgment - just the facts as we know them. I'll run it by a few key people including Mark.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Bounce History

Bob Bellizzi
 

Don't feel bad about being dated.  Earthink was my 4th.  Mindspring was my 3rd hosting service after the 2nd one quit to go into another business.  Before that there was a strange outfit at the top of the Knight-Ridder bldg in San Jose called something like Internet Condos or kinda like that in 19 and 96. <lol>
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:24 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
everyone, whether groups.io virgins or not, who requests membership in such groups is required to return not only the pending questionnaire but ALSO the confirmation email.
And in the case where the person applies via the web and is a non-groups.io virgin, I think you could get the even weirder case where they could return the pending questionnaire, but if they don't also return the confirmation email they don't even show up in the pending list! (Still scratching my head around that one and will try to run a test today)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Bounce History

Bob Bellizzi
 

Earthink is definitely blacklisting all of groups.io.  
I have about 15 earthink.net members.  The latest soft bounce was 12/16/2018 
The last hard bounce was 12/15/2016
Our message board is fairly active with at least a couple of digests per day.
Something else is causing it the issue to be specific to some groups?
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends ®
Founder & Executive Director, The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation


moderated Re: Bounce History

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:11 AM, Duane wrote:
they merged in early 2000
Thanks. (Damn, that dates me! :-)
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: (from beta) Bulk reminders for NCs #suggestion

 

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 09:09 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
We then have the rather silly situation whereby the NC status remains even if the Pending Subscription message gets a proper response.
Yes, exactly. But the problem (I'm guessing) is that there's no realistic way, at least currently, for groups.io to know which groups require a response to the pending notice. It is conceivable that you could come up with a method for distinguishing such groups from the "non pending-response required" groups somehow, by having a separate category, and doing away with the confirmation email for those groups.

BTW, it's not only that the NC status remains in such groups for members who are groups.io "virgins" (my own term for not being in any other groups yet). It's that everyone, whether groups.io virgins or not, who requests membership in such groups is required to return not only the pending questionnaire but ALSO the confirmation email.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

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