Date   
moderated My focus for the next few months

 

Hi All,

I think I mentioned this a bit in passing, but I wanted to update you on what I'll be focusing on for the next few months. Basically, there are two projects that I've started focusing on. The first is the ability for group owners to charge subscriptions for their groups. I posted a first pass at a help document a week or so ago that outlined some of the features, and I'll be posting a revised version of that next week. The tricky part of this project is figuring out the various interactions and screens needed, and to make it all easy to understand. I hope to have it launched before the end of the year.

The other project I've started working on is more straightforward but a lot more work, an iOS/Android app. While the website does work on mobile, it's not the best experience, and it cannot do notifications, which several groups have asked for (especially for chat). Plus, it's the 21st century, we need an app! There are several other projects that will also eventually roll into this, including the notifications overhaul, and unread message tracking.

Expect the weekly #changelog to be a bit sparse at times while I work through this. Of course I'll always be fixing bugs as well.

Thanks,
Mark

moderated Database ID# check boxes

DanLins
 

Just an inquiry and a suggestion. Why do viewers need to see the ID# and check boxes associated with them at all?

I realize Mark is going to be very busy on much more important developments for a while, but I for one would like to see these disappear. Or at least allow those with editing permission to change the width of that particular field.

Example: https://groups.io/g/DaltonLathes/table?id=10276

The whole ID column eats up a lot on space.

Thanks,

Dan Linscheid

moderated Re: Database ID# check boxes

Gerald Boutin
 

Dan,

The ID is a row counter. You can change the sort order on this column. Click on the blue ID button below the rows to hide the column. The button will turn gray and the column disappears.

The checkboxes are for selecting rows. So far, I think it is only used to delete multiples rows at one time.

--
Gerald

moderated Re: Database ID# check boxes

DanLins
 

Thanks, Gerald. I see that one can sort on the columns using these also. My particular database has about 50 blank spaces after the ID #, which pushes all the input data way off to the right.

Dan

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

It's working! :-)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

Oops, no it’s not. Notification was delayed, but it’s the same problem as I had originally with this: an attempted reply via email bounced, with message that replies had to be only to sender. This was the original problem I had with this in my group, and which caused me to give up on using reply-to-sender hashtags. I can send you the details offlist after I run another test.


On Oct 31, 2018, at 8:10 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

It's working! :-)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

Bruce Bowman
 

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 12:23 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
Oops, no it’s not. Notification was delayed, but it’s the same problem as I had originally with this: an attempted reply via email bounced, with message that replies had to be only to sender. This was the original problem I had with this in my group, and which caused me to give up on using reply-to-sender hashtags. I can send you the details offlist after I run another test.
A hashtag with "reply only to sender" set is supposed to bounce stuff that is sent to the group. That is by design. Try a "reply to sender" hashtag instead. Ref: https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/18853  

Bruce

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 05:56 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
A hashtag with "reply only to sender" set is supposed to bounce stuff that is sent to the group.
I know what hashtags with "reply only to sender" are supposed to do. I wrote the Help section on hashtags. But when someone hits "reply" by email from gmail (and probably other providers), groups.io should not be trying to send both the group and the individual if the hashtag is so marked, and that is what it does, and then it bounces the one sent to the group. A person replying by email is not privy to the fact that the the topic is reply-to-sender. A person replying via web does know, because the reply is automatically marked "reply to sender." That is the problem here, and was the problem all along with this situation when a group is set to disable other reply options. People in my group were all alarmed, telling me their emails were bouncing, etc. I am guessing that the group's "disable other reply options" may be contributing to this problem (it may not, I don't remember - at one point our group had that setting, at another point it didn't) but I was planning to check that today
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

"I wrote the Help section on hashtags."
and I will be updating that for Mark as soon as I thoroughly test the new scheme

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 6:39 AM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 05:56 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
A hashtag with "reply only to sender" set is supposed to bounce stuff that is sent to the group.
I know what hashtags with "reply only to sender" are supposed to do. I wrote the Help section on hashtags. But when someone hits "reply" by email from gmail (and probably other providers), groups.io should not be trying to send both the group and the individual if the hashtag is so marked, and that is what it does, and then it bounces the one sent to the group. A person replying by email is not privy to the fact that the the topic is reply-to-sender. A person replying via web does know, because the reply is automatically marked "reply to sender." That is the problem here, and was the problem all along with this situation when a group is set to disable other reply options. People in my group were all alarmed, telling me their emails were bouncing, etc. I am guessing that the group's "disable other reply options" may be contributing to this problem (it may not, I don't remember - at one point our group had that setting, at another point it didn't) but I was planning to check that today
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

Bruce, I take that back. I just tried your suggestion (using "reply to sender" instead of "reply only to sender") and it works fine via email. 
I will revert to questioning the wording of the new scheme once I test all the possibilities (and will post my comments about that in this thread), because I think the current wording is very misleading.
Thanks for your suggestion.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

In particular, ‘reply only to sender’ actually causes groups.io to attempt to send both to the sender and to the group, and then bounces the email it sends to the group; whereas ‘reply to sender’ actually sends only to the sender. So maybe these designations should be reversed.


On Nov 1, 2018, at 8:12 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Bruce, I take that back. I just tried your suggestion (using "reply to sender" instead of "reply only to sender") and it works fine via email. 
I will revert to questioning the wording of the new scheme once I test all the possibilities (and will post my comments about that in this thread), because I think the current wording is very misleading.
Thanks for your suggestion.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

Bruce Bowman
 

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 11:38 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
In particular, ‘reply only to sender’ actually causes groups.io to attempt to send both to the sender and to the group, and then bounces the email it sends to the group; whereas ‘reply to sender’ actually sends only to the sender. So maybe these designations should be reversed.
J -- I created a hashtag with #replyonlytosender in ShalsTest and am not seeing the behavior you describe.

  • If I simply hit reply using my email client, it automatically populates my own address. The group address is NWTBF.
  • If I manually insert the group address anyway, the one going directly to me arrives fine but the one to the group bounces with a 500 error.
  • If I click the link to view/reply online, the message editor comes up Private with no way to change it to Public.
Are you using Reply All or something?

Bruce

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 09:02 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
Are you using Reply All or something?
No, and that's the issue. The user just hits "reply" and gets the bounce message. This is using gmail. Not sure what happens with other email addresses but I seem to recall that it was a universal problem in my group, before I stopped using the feature. People replying via email were just hitting "reply," very innocently. Then they'd get the bounce message and would start to complain to me, wonder whether they'd been removed from the group, etc. As I said before, I have not yet had a chance to remove the "disable other reply options" in my test group and try this there and see if there's the same result.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

p.s. I did report this to support as a bug at least a year ago, but eventually gave up on it, thought it might be due to "disable other reply options," etc. So I'm glad it's coming up now.


On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 9:11 AM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 09:02 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
Are you using Reply All or something?
No, and that's the issue. The user just hits "reply" and gets the bounce message. This is using gmail. Not sure what happens with other email addresses but I seem to recall that it was a universal problem in my group, before I stopped using the feature. People replying via email were just hitting "reply," very innocently. Then they'd get the bounce message and would start to complain to me, wonder whether they'd been removed from the group, etc. As I said before, I have not yet had a chance to remove the "disable other reply options" in my test group and try this there and see if there's the same result.
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

I just a gmail setting called "default reply behavior, reply or reply all" and will try to find time today to see how this interacts with the groups.io settings. This might be the key to the problem, but if so, it will not remove the problem in groups without trying to instruct everyone to set their gmail (or other) settings to conform with groups.io.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 09:18 AM, J_Catlady wrote:
I just a gmail setting
"just found"
 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

..and for the record, I had neither box checked when I ran the test. Will try more tests later today. Seems like "reply all" might be the gmail default if neither box is checked.


On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 9:18 AM J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
I just a gmail setting called "default reply behavior, reply or reply all" and will try to find time today to see how this interacts with the groups.io settings. This might be the key to the problem, but if so, it will not remove the problem in groups without trying to instruct everyone to set their gmail (or other) settings to conform with groups.io.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

J,


But when someone hits "reply" by email from gmail (and probably other providers), groups.io should not be trying to send both the group and the individual if the hashtag is so marked, and that is what it does,

I see you found the Gmail option to have the default Reply behavior be Reply All.

If that option is chosen then the reply arrow at the top of the message does Reply All, and the buttons on the bottom are reversed (Reply All to the left of Reply). Reply All then sends the reply to both the From address (the sender) and the To address (the group) of the original message.

I don't think there's anything Groups.io can do about this Gmail behavior, except possibly to warn about it.

The only mitigation I can think of would be to silently swallow the message to the group rather than bounce it, but that would be a violation of email standards, and might well lead to more severe confusions. Modifying the original message's To address to be something other than the group posting address might help, but could also be problematic (e.g. the member might have their email filter for the group based on the To field).

That option (making Reply All the default behavior) is not unique to Gmail.
Shal

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

Shal, yes, that appears to be the problem. However, I still don’t understand why ‘reply only to sender’ uses the gmail setting (whatever the person has it set to, even if they, like me, are clueless about the default) whereas ‘reply to sender’ overrides it and creates a PM directly to the individual and not to the group. This still seems problematic and misleading to me, but I haven’t had time yet to sort through the whole new scheme. If I’m honest, I may never have time and I’m hoping that at Mark will consider at least this particular issue at this point.


On Nov 1, 2018, at 10:03 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

J,


But when someone hits "reply" by email from gmail (and probably other providers), groups.io should not be trying to send both the group and the individual if the hashtag is so marked, and that is what it does,

I see you found the Gmail option to have the default Reply behavior be Reply All.

If that option is chosen then the reply arrow at the top of the message does Reply All, and the buttons on the bottom are reversed (Reply All to the left of Reply). Reply All then sends the reply to both the From address (the sender) and the To address (the group) of the original message.

I don't think there's anything Groups.io can do about this Gmail behavior, except possibly to warn about it.

The only mitigation I can think of would be to silently swallow the message to the group rather than bounce it, but that would be a violation of email standards, and might well lead to more severe confusions. Modifying the original message's To address to be something other than the group posting address might help, but could also be problematic (e.g. the member might have their email filter for the group based on the To field).

That option (making Reply All the default behavior) is not unique to Gmail.
Shal


--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.
My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together. - Desmond Tutu

moderated Re: Hashtag and Topic reply to overrides

 

J


Shal, yes, that appears to be the problem. However, I still don’t understand why ‘reply only to sender’ uses the gmail setting ...

Because you're composing the reply in Gmail. They populate the To and CC fields of the reply using their own rules and settings to choose content from the original message's fields (From, To, CC, Reply-To, etc.).

In the case of Reply Only To Sender messages Groups.io does not insert a Reply-To field in the original message, so Gmail (and other receiving email interfaces) would normally reply to the From address.  I don't think it would help in the Reply All case if Groups.io did supply a Reply-To field - I think Gmail (and others) would include that content in the reply but would likely still include the original message's To address (the group).

... whereas ‘reply to sender’ overrides it and creates a PM directly to the individual and not to the group.

I haven't tested it, but if that is indeed the case I do wonder how that is achieved in the face of Reply All behavior.

My guess is that it doesn't, that the Reply All does in fact return to the group as well, and it is the lack of a bounce that made you think otherwise.

Shal