Date   

locked Re: EU General Data Protection Regulation

Marina
 

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 01:44 pm, Chris Jones wrote:


Having said all that Groups.io is outside the EU, and the EU's writ stops at
the border.
I am not so sure about that.
I moved to IO a Yahoo group whose members are primarily EU citizens. The new group stores members' names and e-mail addresses plus all posts from previous Yahoo group, including those sent by members who have left the group.
My practical question is: what should I do to avoid legal problems?
I wasn't aware of this issue when I moved over my old group, otherwise I would have opted out of the message archive transfer.
I'd like to hear from other EU group owners who moved to IO and learn how they are dealing with this problem.

Marina


moderated Re: Site updates #changelog

 

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 5:31 AM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

Mark -- Don't forget to update the Help to reflect this. https://groups.io/static/help#changeemail

Thank you. Fixed.


Mark 


locked Re: EU General Data Protection Regulation

Chris Jones
 

Having said all that Groups.io is outside the EU, and the EU's writ stops at the border. I don't know if the EU could or would block Groups.io if it was found to be being naughty. "We can't stop you but we can stop you doing it here".

Chris


locked Re: EU General Data Protection Regulation

Jeremy H
 

Yes, something we all should be aware of - a quote I have come across (at https://lizhendersondata.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/gdpr-are-you-aware/ ):
“The directive will affect every single business that holds data on customers in Europe, whether or not the business is located in Europe or is part of the EU.”
Arguing that a group is not a 'business', or 'organisation' (word used elsewhere) is likely to turn into a lawyer enrichment exercise!  
And another from the Irish Data Protection Commissioner (at https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Are-you-a-Data-Controller/y/43.htm )
In essence, you are a data controller if you can answer YES to the following question:
  • Do you keep or process any information about living people?
Which I interpret as including Groups.io, Inc., and any group that includes a member (I suspect one is enough!) in the EU, and applying to Mark and the Owner of any such group.

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 03:56 am, Chris Jones wrote:
Victoria has raised an important issue; the Groups of which I am a member do not store (in any form) anything beyond members' Display Names and email addresses, and of course that storage is actually at Groups.io.
Also stored is anything that members post...
IANAL so I am not in a position to speculate on how much responsibility rests with individual Owners and how much with Groups.io as a corporate entity.
Nor am I - but I would hazard a guess at both, at their different levels (owners for groups, and group.io for the overall service).

That said, to a large extent, the GDPR are essentially a reiteration, and standardisation across the EU, of what is widely in place, and a codification of what we should be doing anyway as 'good practice' (the biggest thing for many will be the need for this to to documented).

There are guides to the GDPR (overkill for most groups! - the quick 12 step versions are probably more than enough for  most) from the UK ICO (at https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/ ) and the Irish DPC (at http://gdprandyou.ie/ ), and doubtless their equivalents in the other EU countries. Any group run in conjunction, or for, a 'real life' (i.e. non-email/non-internet) group (of whatever sort) needs consider how the two - and their policies - interact.

Mark should probably be reviewing the groups.io (his!) practices , Terms of Service and Privacy Policy in light of GDPR. 

For MOST (not necessarily all) groups, where the only personal data collected is (Display) Name and e-mail address, and anything they choose to post or otherwise upload (in file or database) - you probably need to think if you're asking for more, or have any expectation of it including anything 'sensitive', e.g. health data, I would think (IANAL) a simple statement, on the following lines, would be adequate if made available (as file or part of wiki):

We collect data <as above> on the basis of 'Legitimate Interests' [see https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/lawful-basis-for-processing/legitimate-interests/  - as it is required or implicit for  the functioning of the group]; this data is stored by groups.io in the USA, see their ToS and Privacy Policy, and that it is or may be available to any current or future member (or publicly if group archives, etc. are 'public'!), as part of the normal functioning of the group. While Group Owner and Moderators will not disclose this information to third parties [if - as I would hope - this is the case: otherwise state position], we cannot guarantee that other members will not do so. In the event of any issues, please contact Group Owner <give e-mail address>.        

Anther thing to beware of is ensuring that any downloaded data (member list? back up of archives? files?) is kept secure (who can do this? and do they).

For those with more interest, other links I have come across which may of use include 

https://lizhendersondata.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/gdpr-are-you-aware/ ; https://lizhendersondata.wordpress.com/2017/01/25/gdpr-initial-steps-whats-next/ ;https://lizhendersondata.wordpress.com/2017/03/27/gdpr-privacy-notice/ ; https://lizhendersondata.wordpress.com/2017/05/24/gdpr-plan-do-you-have-yours/ ; https://lizhendersondata.wordpress.com/2017/06/21/now-gdpr-next-more-data-legislation/ ; and https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2018/mar/29/gdpr-email-data-protection-regulations-secure .

Jeremy


moderated Re: show "Likes" in search results #suggestion

Arno Martens
 

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 09:11 pm, J_Catlady wrote:

It would be nice to see "Likes" in search results, just as they do in the
complete message list.
I like that as there sometimes is a bewildering amount of replies and odd are that the post with multiple likes may be closer to what is wanted.


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

David P. Dillard
 

Yes I do see a problem with that. Some topics do not fit under any of the subject headings of a simple list of major headings or the nitty gritty headings, in your and other Groups.IO members hashtags. These may not be a good fit for a post, but terminology in a broad headings list combined with a number of narrow terms may help find lists that fit a complex subject as the theme of a list.

I have developed a subject heading list and add to it regularly as I share posts with new topics. Broad topics are a part of the whole list of terms as are specific ones I need. I have never used a hash tag in my life as I do not see the point in them. Furthermore I can search in Google and find ridiculous combinations that get to my content such as the results of this search.

tinyurl AND "net-gold" AND "temple.edu"

https://tinyurl.com/y8vbmkcr

This search does not work nearly as well in Groups.IO

https://tinyurl.com/yc7bvxqc

but Google is looking at content I have on numerous venues, but Groups.IO is only looking at one discussion group. I have never used tinyurl as an index term. Google searches full text and finds much more of ones content than some other search tools. Hence public lists are far more searchable as outside tools, such as Google can be used to find content in them, and access to multiple search tools can greatly increase the findability of your contents. There is simply no magic in hashtags or in other devices like that. But there is a trick in Google that I have been using in Google since October 2014, coincidently the same month I created my first Groups.IO lists. Compare the quality of results in the first and second links below in a search of diabetes.

https://tinyurl.com/ydakfcp4


https://tinyurl.com/ybpd7lrr


and there is this example that leads in a different direction:


https://tinyurl.com/y7aw4v87


The trick here is using the Google command SITE: in an off prescription
way and it changes the power of the search. One can also try replacing
SITE: with AND and compare results.

A detailed description of discussion groups in the first message or on any other searchable part of the discussion group, will do far more for making groups that fit ones wished for specific content than will general
hash tags and broad subject categories in my opinion.




Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University
(215) 204 - 4584
jwne@...
http://workface.com/e/daviddillard

RESEARCH GUIDE DIRECTORY
https://sites.google.com/site/researchguideresourcesongsites/

Net-Gold
https://groups.io/g/Net-Gold
http://listserv.temple.edu/archives/net-gold.html
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/Net-Gold/archives

Google Sites Research Guides AND Discussion Group Directory
http://tinyurl.com/ngda2hk

OR

https://sites.google.com/site/researchguidesonsites/

FAKE NEWS
https://sites.google.com/site/fakenewsresearchguide/

RESEARCH PAPER WRITING
https://sites.google.com/site/howtowriteasuperresearchpaper/

EMPLOYMENT
https://sites.google.com/site/employmentsources/

INTERNSHIPS
https://sites.google.com/site/internshipsarticles/home/internships-main-sitemap

Social Work and Social Issues Discussion Group
https://groups.io/g/social-work

Tourism Discussion Group
https://groups.io/g/Tourism

Blog
https://educatorgold.wordpress.com/

Articles by David Dillard
https://sites.google.com/site/daviddillardsarticles/

Twitter: davidpdillard

SPORT-MED
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/sport-med.html
http://listserv.temple.edu/archives/sport-med.html
https://groups.io/g/SportMed/topics

On Sat, 7 Apr 2018, Susanne wrote:

At 2018-04-06 03:52 AM, David P. Dillard wrote:
Unfortunately there is nothing simple about subject
classification
Amen.
and a simplistic list will have very little value for finding
discussion groups with specific topics of coverage such as
diabetes or the war of 1812 as with the growth of GroupsIO
there may be many medical and history groups here and these
topics may have a huge body or lists under each of these
categories for a potential member to wade through to find the
list subject they desire. Sincerely, David Dillard Temple
University Libraries
Do you see a problem with having relatively few broad categories and
achieving specificity with tags? To use your example, have a category for
Historical Events and tag it for the War of 1812.  "History" could also be
used as a tag for other categories.  For example, if you have a group for
your SCA chapter or historical re-enactment association, one of its
categories could be Culture and Community (to use Al's list),  with a tag
of History.  "Diabetes" would be a tag under Medicine, Health, and
Wellness.  Of course keywords from a group's description are also in play
in a search. -- Susanne


moderated disable private replies via website to member no longer in the group #suggestion

 

I just tested whether or not a private reply via the web to a member no longer in a group gets through to the past member, and it does. While I understand that there's no way to disable contacting past members via email, I think it makes the most sense to disable private replies via the web to people no longer in the group. I'd almost consider it a bug that they're allowed.
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

Chris Jones
 

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 07:11 am, Gerald Boutin wrote:
I would think that limits the usage to a very limited audience. Why not spend the effort putting together keywords in the group descriptions and let Google have at it? 
I think that might justifiably be called "Mission Creep". On a potentially epic scale.

Chris


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 

What is the intended audience for this categorization? Is it intended for only current groups.io subscribers?

I would think that limits the usage to a very limited audience. Why not spend the effort putting together keywords in the group descriptions and let Google have at it? 

--
Gerald


moderated Re: Site updates #changelog

Bruce Bowman
 

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 09:28 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
NEW: When attempting to change your email address to an address that already has an account, and that isn't just subscribed to updates@, we now offer the ability to merge the two accounts automatically. An email is sent to the to account and that account has to accept it.
Mark -- Don't forget to update the Help to reflect this. https://groups.io/static/help#changeemail

Bruce


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

Sharon Villines
 

On Apr 6, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Susanne <@sllo1> wrote:

I don't think anyone has suggested using Yahoo's hierarchy. In fact, people have expressed decidedly negative views of it.
I find it a nightmare. And as someone who is interested in subjects and their relationships, I go nuts reading it. It’s based on marketing and what publishers think people will buy if the books appear in the same section.

I do want to observe, though, that my book group discusses books, not literature.
But would they recognize “Literature” as a subject. There is probably another category for clubs.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines
TakomaDC@Groups.io


moderated Re: RSVP request

Southenders Admin
 

This is what we have now
main@SouthendersLakeNorman.groups.io Calendar <main@SouthendersLakeNorman.groups.io>
Mar 27   

#DiningOut Dining Out at La Unica

When:
Wednesday, 25 April 2018
4:30pm to 7:00pm
(GMT-04:00) America/New York

Where:
La Unica Restaurant-Huntersville

Organizer:xyz@...

An RSVP is requested. Are you going?

Description:

Change the AN RSVP IS REQUESTED TO BOLD
turn the ARE YOU GOING INTO A BUTTON
 PUT SOME EXPLANATION REGARDING INCLUDING GUESTS. THE DROPDOWN BOX FOR +1, +2, NEEDS A LINE 
ARE YOU BRINGING GUESTS?
HOW MANY

Thanks Mark


locked Re: EU General Data Protection Regulation

Chris Jones
 

Victoria has raised an important issue; the Groups of which I am a member do not store (in any form) anything beyond members' Display Names and email addresses, and of course that storage is actually at Groups.io.

From reading posts on this and the GMF it is apparent that some Groups hold other much more personal information about their members, and if those members (and / or the Group Owners) are in the EU then the GDPR is something they (the Owners) really need to consider.

IANAL so I am not in a position to speculate on how much responsibility rests with individual Owners and how much with Groups.io as a corporate entity.

Chris.


locked EU General Data Protection Regulation

 

On May 25th 2018 a new privacy policy regulation is becoming valid and will be applicable in all member states to harmonize data privacy laws across Europe:

 

https://gdpr-info.eu/

 

This concerns every platform which is used by Eu-citizens, commercial and private. Since these regulations are substantially stricter than the ones I used to have on my sites so far, modifications to already existing private policy terms became necessary. Everyone who´s got homepages is obliged to adjust their private policy terms according to the new regulations, visible to everybody from the outside. High fines are waiting, and no need to say that lawyers are in the starting gates to search sites and send admonitions.

 

If mailing lists are concerned I do not know for they are not specified in the new regulations. Neither do I know if the private policy terms as they are laid out in groups.io meet the requirements.

 

Just to inform you ..

 

Victoria


moderated Re: Categories for groups -- idea suggestion

Susanne
 


At 2018-04-06 03:52 AM, David P. Dillard wrote:
Unfortunately there is nothing simple about subject classification

Amen.

and a simplistic list will have very little value for finding discussion groups with specific topics of coverage such as diabetes or the war of 1812 as with the growth of GroupsIO there may be many medical and history groups here and these topics may have a huge body or lists under each of these categories for a potential member to wade through to find the list subject they desire.

Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University Libraries

Do you see a problem with having relatively few broad categories and achieving specificity with tags?

To use your example, have a category for Historical Events and tag it for the War of 1812.  "History" could also be used as a tag for other categories.  For example, if you have a group for your SCA chapter or historical re-enactment association, one of its categories could be Culture and Community (to use Al's list),  with a tag of History.  "Diabetes" would be a tag under Medicine, Health, and Wellness. 

Of course keywords from a group's description are also in play in a search.

-- Susanne



moderated Site updates #changelog

 

Changes to the site this week:

  • NEW: When attempting to change your email address to an address that already has an account, and that isn't just subscribed to updates@, we now offer the ability to merge the two accounts automatically. An email is sent to the to account and that account has to accept it.
  • NEW: From the directory, you can send an email to another member. Limited to 2 per day to a specific person, 10 per day total per group.
  • NEW: We now keep and display the response from the email server on successful deliveries, in the Email Delivery History pages.
  • CHANGE: The group home page month view now takes into account a user's timezone.
  • BUGFIX: When editing a poll, the message that gets sent out now starts "A poll has been updated"....
  • BUGFIX: Plain text messages had emails obscured even when the group was set to show them.
  • CHANGE: Allow padding-left style, to fix indented HTML.
  • BUGFIX: Fix page back in group directory.
  • BUGFIX: Honor group aliases when processing emails.

Have a good weekend everybody.

Mark


moderated Re: Members emailing other members via the directory

 

Hi All,

Sorry I wasn't as clear as I could have been. This is to send an email to someone, without you seeing their email address. If that person then chooses to respond to the email, it goes right to you. We do not handle the responses.

If you're an owner/moderator, you're given the opportunity to send the message as from +owner, but otherwise the message comes from your email address.

Thanks,
Mark

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 7:52 PM, Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...> wrote:

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 05:25 pm, JohnF wrote:
1. What does the "From" look like on the received email? Does it show the sender's address, or some groups.io sender?
I've only tested initiating a DM from an owner account. A group+owner@groups.io email address is used. The reply-to also replies to that email address.
On the other hand, in my test, the group owner sees the member email address when composing the message. But that was already available to the owner.

2. What happens if the mail bounces?

3. If you can only mail someone twice in 24 hours, that's not much of a DM capability. If responses also go through groups.io, maybe it can reset that counter when there's a reply.
Only the initial DM is counted. Replies in the conversation do not increment the counter.

4. If the recipient sends a message back like "STOP" or clicks a link, can it stop that sender from sending direct mails to that recipient? If this feature isn't there, the recipient might start marking the messages as spam, and you know where that leads.

5. I'm sure someone will want the ability to send a message to multiple people. Is that a good feature, or should they just create a group for that sort of thing
Just typing things off the top of my head.

JohnF



moderated show "Likes" in search results #suggestion

 

It would be nice to see "Likes" in search results, just as they do in the complete message list.
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Members emailing other members via the directory

Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...>
 


On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 05:25 pm, JohnF wrote:
1. What does the "From" look like on the received email? Does it show the sender's address, or some groups.io sender?
I've only tested initiating a DM from an owner account. A group+owner@groups.io email address is used. The reply-to also replies to that email address.
On the other hand, in my test, the group owner sees the member email address when composing the message. But that was already available to the owner.

2. What happens if the mail bounces?

3. If you can only mail someone twice in 24 hours, that's not much of a DM capability. If responses also go through groups.io, maybe it can reset that counter when there's a reply.
Only the initial DM is counted. Replies in the conversation do not increment the counter.

4. If the recipient sends a message back like "STOP" or clicks a link, can it stop that sender from sending direct mails to that recipient? If this feature isn't there, the recipient might start marking the messages as spam, and you know where that leads.

5. I'm sure someone will want the ability to send a message to multiple people. Is that a good feature, or should they just create a group for that sort of thing
Just typing things off the top of my head.

JohnF


moderated Re: Members emailing other members via the directory

Bruce Bowman
 

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 05:25 pm, JohnF wrote:
1. What does the "From" look like on the received email? Does it show the sender's address, or some groups.io sender?
My test message displayed my email address. But then again, so does every other group email.

2. What happens if the mail bounces?
I would assume these emails will be exempt from the group bouncing protocols, but I really don't know. 

3. If you can only mail someone twice in 24 hours, that's not much of a DM capability. If responses also go through groups.io, maybe it can reset that counter when there's a reply.
I suspect these limits are for spam avoidance. Do you really want someone sending you emails repeatedly? If so, after the first exchange or two you can take the conversation offline and simply not use the GIO interface. 

4. If the recipient sends a message back like "STOP" or clicks a link, can it stop that sender from sending direct mails to that recipient? If this feature isn't there, the recipient might start marking the messages as spam, and you know where that leads.
Both the sender and the recipient must have their profile visible to other group members. So there is already a mechanism to stop someone...changing your profile back to private.

5. I'm sure someone will want the ability to send a message to multiple people. Is that a good feature, or should they just create a group for that sort of thing?
We now have the ability to send to individuals or to the whole group. There will always be other possible features but let's not look a gift horse in the mouth.

Bruce