Date   

moderated Re: Y!G transfer and collapse topics

Benoît Dumeaux
 

I have old messages that have <BR> code. Possible to change <BR> to new line?


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

I also see a "resumed membership" log entry from someone  at sympatico.ca, but no log entry for removed-for-spam.
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 10:33 am, Mark Fletcher wrote:
We're signed up for the following FBL systems: aol.com, outlook.com, rr.com, earthlink.net, yahoo.com
And hotmail? I had a hotmail member removed for marking spam, but that was in Dec. 2016.
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 8:06 AM, Lena <Lena@...> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:56 pm, Dave Sergeant wrote:

> why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
> other various email list providers continue to work well without having
> this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it

Because groups.io is not too big to block.


Lena's right. We currently peak at a little under 5M emails sent a day, which is a lot, but not so much that it would have a ton of fallout for blocking us. I think we're still in the range of "AOL is blocking you, it's your problem" vs "AOL is blocking you, it's their problem". 

I signed up for the FBL systems because I didn't want us to be blocked. No one will use an email group service that suffers delivery issues. I've tried to make it as easy as possible to deal with false positives, with a one click re-subscribe. As a (I think valuable) bonus, list moderators know that their messages aren't ending up in spam folders.

No email provider will provide documentation on how their spam system works. Understandable, but that leaves me guessing about things. Here were some of my guesses:

- Signing up for an FBL makes us more legitimate, therefore perhaps we will suffer fewer blocks/be given more leniency
- Having a 'forcing function' that gets people to train spam filters to not mark Groups.io email as spam hopefully decreases the future likelihood of emails being marked as spam
- Fewer messages being marked as spam also makes us look more legitimate to those email providers
- Fewer messages being marked as spam will make group moderators happy and reduce support issues

But like I said, all of these were guesses and nobody was going to tell me whether they were correct.

We're signed up for the following FBL systems: aol.com, outlook.com, rr.com, earthlink.net, yahoo.com

We have been temporarily blocked by Earthlink at one point. I think we were also temporarily blocked by AOL at one point. But none of the others. I'm not sure this disproves my guess or not.

Right now, we're averaging 1 spam complaint to our hosting service (Linode) every 3 weeks or so. These days those seem to fall into 2 categories: someone on a group transferred from Yahoo, who is apparently confused and angry about what happened. The other category is reports from juno.com email addresses. I have no idea what's going on with those, as it doesn't appear to be based on complaints from the members involved. I think this level of complaints is ok, given the number of emails we send and the number of members we have. But I don't know what Linode's threshold for annoyance is; I have not talked with their trust and safety department and they don't seem to want to talk with me about it.


Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

toki
 

On 03/20/2018 08:13 AM, Noel Leaver wrote:
I don't understand why the member is unsubscribed rather than sending of emails being suspended like it would be for bouncing emails.
Bouncing can be a transient computer induced glitch.

Spam is, at least in theory, verified by a human. The primary issue
being one person's spam is another person's gold.

jonathon


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

wunder,

DMARC is an anti-spam system ...

No, that is explicitly wrong. DMARC is an anti-spoofing mechanism. It has nothing to say about whether the messages are spam or not.

Yahoo has set their DMARC policy to “reject”, so any mail that is suspicious is rejected instead of delivered.

You've got it backwards. DMARC is a request by the sender that anyone receiving a message claiming to be from them (email header From) should make some extra tests and if the message fails the tests the receiver is asked to follow the policy. Some receivers do, some don't.

Hence Yahoo Mail's DMARC policy does not control mail inbound to Yahoo Mail. But Yahoo Mail does implement DMARC checking on inbound messages and they appear to respect the policy settings of others (including their own - for inbound messages that originated at Yahoo Mail).
 
It seems that they trust email sent from their own domain, so bounces from Yahoo email addresses never happen for Yahoo Groups.

Correct. They effectively "whitelisted" messages from Yahoo Groups by marking the yahoogroups.com domain as an allowed sender under Yahoo Mail's policies and/or including yahoogroups outbound servers in Yahoo Mail's SPF policy.

It seems that Yahoo’s DMARC will sometimes accept email from a groups.io group and sometimes not. When it rejects the email, the user is unsubscribed because the mail bounced.

No, the member is not unsubscribed for a bounce. An unsubscribe would occur only if Yahoo Mail also sent an abuse report to Groups.io - and I'm not sure it is possible or valid to send such a report for a message the service rejected at the outset.

Nearly all other providers use a policy of “quarantine”, which accepts the mail but puts it in a spam folder. That policy does not cause this problem.

And some email receivers, such as Gmail, don't strictly obey the sender's DMARC policy. Gmail takes into account more than that before deciding how to handle an inbound message. And in particular, Gmail appears to reliably ignore senders' DMARC when a message passes through a mail list like Groups.io.

Shal


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:56 pm, Dave Sergeant wrote:

why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
other various email list providers continue to work well without having
this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it
Because groups.io is not too big to block.


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Walter Underwood
 

DMARC is an anti-spam system that makes rigorous checks on the domain of received email.

Yahoo has set their DMARC policy to “reject”, so any mail that is suspicious is rejected instead of delivered. It seems that they trust email sent from their own domain, so bounces from Yahoo email addresses never happen for Yahoo Groups.

It seems that Yahoo’s DMARC will sometimes accept email from a groups.io group and sometimes not. When it rejects the email, the user is unsubscribed because the mail bounced.

Nearly all other providers use a policy of “quarantine”, which accepts the mail but puts it in a spam folder. That policy does not cause this problem.

Other providers with a “reject” policy are AOL and Mail.ru.

wunder
Walter Underwood
wunder@...
http://observer.wunderwood.org/  (my blog)

On Mar 19, 2018, at 11:56 PM, Dave Sergeant <dave@...> wrote:

I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
other various email list providers continue to work well without having
this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it but everybody
else can seem to manage without having to do anything similar?

Dave

On 20 Mar 2018 at 5:28, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon






http://davesergeant.com






moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Patty,

Was I a victim of this spam auto unsubscription process due to someone else with an @aol.com email address not being so vigilant, and having that actually occur? 

No. The mechanism is supposed to be specific to your subscription.

I suppose a glitch is possible, but it may be more likely that one got by you some time ago, and lingered in your Spam folder until it eventually was auto-deleted yesterday.

That's one of the annoyances with this whole (IMO defective) business of triggering a report based on deletion from the Spam folder - it can be a time bomb that goes off long after the message in question was sent. I really think it should be reserved for cases where the user explicitly marked a message in his/her Inbox as Spam, and should happen immediately on that event. I get somewhat snarky at times towards AOL because I think they're doing it wrong.

Either that or AOL and Yahoo Mail (both now owned by Verizon) think the FBL mechanism is for some other purpose entirely, and Mark is doing it wrong. But I've more faith in his ability to read and follow standards than in theirs.

Shal


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Noel,

I don't understand why the member is unsubscribed rather than sending of emails being suspended like it would be for bouncing emails. That way they would still have online access.

That's an interesting idea. It resolves the objection to "No Email" by having a separate status instead of altering the member's delivery setting. Unlike bouncing though, this should be a group-specific status not something affecting delivery of messages from the member's other subscriptions.

It also begs a question of what, if any, indication the member is given on site. If there's nothing apart from that group being missing from the member's group list then I'd agree, a group-specific status would be friendlier.

On further question is whether this status should have a time-out after which it resolves to an unsubscription, or in the case of a subscription that actually wasn't desired does it end up hanging around forever. One of the reasons for the FBL mechanism is that some people use the Spam button to get rid of groups they've lost interest in because they're afraid to use an unsubscribe link.

Shal


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Patty Sliney
 

Shal, and others, I just had this happen to me yesterday.  I got a notice that I was unsubscribed to this group due to marking a Groups.IO email as spam (which I did not, nor has any Groups.IO emails been found in my AOL Spam folder that I can remember).  I simply clicked on the link to resubscribe myself and the issue was instantly fixed.  Guess my question is this:  Was I a victim of this spam auto unsubscription process due to someone else with an @aol.com email address not being so vigilant, and having that actually occur?  I did take the digest email address and I added it to my Address Book, to see if that might discourage another future automatic spam unsubscribe issue.

Patty S.


moderated Re: Make Database Link Title and Description optional

Tom H
 

Great! Thanks, Mark.


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Noel Leaver
 

I don't understand why the member is unsubscribed rather than sending of emails being suspended like it would be for bouncing emails. That way they would still have online access.

Noel


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Barb,

My recommendation would be to do nothing.  Stop unsubscribing them.  It seems like the subscriber needs to fix it themselves.

Actually, I'm close to thinking this might be the practical answer. It goes with the objection that Dave and others have raised: why is it that other list services apparently do not do this?

Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it

Groups.io cares on behalf of the other members using the same email service. The implementation on Groups.io started with the observation that a lot of group messages were not being delivered to certain services. And I think that means "bounced" and/or greylisted, not merely diverted to Spam. So Mark sought a way to improve overall deliverability to those services.

Perhaps the other list services take a less altruistic view of it. If you (a member) are fool enough to continue using a service that doesn't deliver the mail you want to your Inbox, well that's your problem. The fact that your problem is (in part) caused by the actions or inattention of other users of your email service doesn't mean that it isn't still your problem.

But... (there's always a but)

Would that choice merely trade one source of ongoing complaint and confusion for another, potentially larger one?

That is, "why aren't I getting the group's messages?" has long been a FAQ (at least in Yahoo Groups). People are told to check their spam folders and to add addresses to their filters and/or address books. And of course if the delivery through that service deteriorates to the point of routinely rejecting messages from Groups.io, that doesn't reflect well on Groups.io as a service either.

Shal


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Ronaldo,

some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands
in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the
address is live...]
Note that the FBL mechanism is based on a contract between the sending service and the receiving service - just any old spam source won't be getting reports (assuming the receiving service has been careful enough).

Too, the amount of information reported to the sending service may vary - some receiving services don't include the email address that reported the message as spam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email)

Shal


moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

 

If that’s how it looks (I haven’t checked), to avoid the redundancy I would change the interface by making the permissions that imply access to the members list appear indented beneath it as additional permissions.


On Mar 20, 2018, at 12:31 AM, Linda <lindon@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,
With Members Visible set to Owners only, this is what I see now:  

 

View Member List
Approve Pending Members (also allows access to the member list)
Ban Members (also allows access to the member list)
Set Member Subscription Options (also allows access to the member list)
Set Moderator Privileges (also allows access to the member list and allows setting member subscription options)
Remove Members (also allows access to the member list)
which doesn't seem to agree with what you wrote...

Thanks,
Linda

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 09:54 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
- There is a new View Member List moderator permission (defaulted unchecked for existing moderators).
- If a group's Members Visible setting is Owners only, it used to be that we allowed moderators with one of the member change privileges (approve pending members, ban, etc) to also access the Members list. But now, if Members Visible is set to Owners, only owners can access the members list, regardless of whether moderators have any relevant privileges.

--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

Linda
 

Hi Mark,
I copied and pasted but the boxes disappeared on sending. Items 3, 4, and 6 were checked.
All the bolding was mine but I forgot to bold line 2, which wasn't checked.

Thanks,
Linda


On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 12:31 am, Linda wrote:
View Member List
Approve Pending Members (also allows access to the member list)
Ban Members (also allows access to the member list)
Set Member Subscription Options (also allows access to the member list)
Set Moderator Privileges (also allows access to the member list and allows setting member subscription options)
Remove Members (also allows access to the member list)


moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

Linda
 

Hi Mark,
With Members Visible set to Owners only, this is what I see now:  

 

View Member List
Approve Pending Members (also allows access to the member list)
Ban Members (also allows access to the member list)
Set Member Subscription Options (also allows access to the member list)
Set Moderator Privileges (also allows access to the member list and allows setting member subscription options)
Remove Members (also allows access to the member list)
which doesn't seem to agree with what you wrote...

Thanks,
Linda


On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 09:54 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
- There is a new View Member List moderator permission (defaulted unchecked for existing moderators).
- If a group's Members Visible setting is Owners only, it used to be that we allowed moderators with one of the member change privileges (approve pending members, ban, etc) to also access the Members list. But now, if Members Visible is set to Owners, only owners can access the members list, regardless of whether moderators have any relevant privileges.


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Dave,

I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all
my other various email list providers continue to work well without
having this automatic unsubscribe?
Granted it is still speculation, but my belief with respect to Yahoo Groups is that they stopped upgrades before Yahoo Mail implemented the mechanism. Another possibility is that larger, longer-established services may get a pass from the email services. Or at least better information about the email service's intent when sending the reports.

Some other GMF members and I been trying to consolidate what information is available here:
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam

Eventually I'll want to add citations to it other than just the Wikipedia article, including citing the messages from Mark about it.

Shal


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Dave Sergeant
 

I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
other various email list providers continue to work well without having
this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it but everybody
else can seem to manage without having to do anything similar?

Dave

On 20 Mar 2018 at 5:28, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?
It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket. Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer. A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs. And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon




http://davesergeant.com