Date   

moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Ronaldo,

some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands
in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the
address is live...]
Note that the FBL mechanism is based on a contract between the sending service and the receiving service - just any old spam source won't be getting reports (assuming the receiving service has been careful enough).

Too, the amount of information reported to the sending service may vary - some receiving services don't include the email address that reported the message as spam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email)

Shal


moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

 

If that’s how it looks (I haven’t checked), to avoid the redundancy I would change the interface by making the permissions that imply access to the members list appear indented beneath it as additional permissions.


On Mar 20, 2018, at 12:31 AM, Linda <lindon@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,
With Members Visible set to Owners only, this is what I see now:  

 

View Member List
Approve Pending Members (also allows access to the member list)
Ban Members (also allows access to the member list)
Set Member Subscription Options (also allows access to the member list)
Set Moderator Privileges (also allows access to the member list and allows setting member subscription options)
Remove Members (also allows access to the member list)
which doesn't seem to agree with what you wrote...

Thanks,
Linda

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 09:54 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
- There is a new View Member List moderator permission (defaulted unchecked for existing moderators).
- If a group's Members Visible setting is Owners only, it used to be that we allowed moderators with one of the member change privileges (approve pending members, ban, etc) to also access the Members list. But now, if Members Visible is set to Owners, only owners can access the members list, regardless of whether moderators have any relevant privileges.

--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

Linda
 

Hi Mark,
I copied and pasted but the boxes disappeared on sending. Items 3, 4, and 6 were checked.
All the bolding was mine but I forgot to bold line 2, which wasn't checked.

Thanks,
Linda


On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 12:31 am, Linda wrote:
View Member List
Approve Pending Members (also allows access to the member list)
Ban Members (also allows access to the member list)
Set Member Subscription Options (also allows access to the member list)
Set Moderator Privileges (also allows access to the member list and allows setting member subscription options)
Remove Members (also allows access to the member list)


moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

Linda
 

Hi Mark,
With Members Visible set to Owners only, this is what I see now:  

 

View Member List
Approve Pending Members (also allows access to the member list)
Ban Members (also allows access to the member list)
Set Member Subscription Options (also allows access to the member list)
Set Moderator Privileges (also allows access to the member list and allows setting member subscription options)
Remove Members (also allows access to the member list)
which doesn't seem to agree with what you wrote...

Thanks,
Linda


On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 09:54 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
- There is a new View Member List moderator permission (defaulted unchecked for existing moderators).
- If a group's Members Visible setting is Owners only, it used to be that we allowed moderators with one of the member change privileges (approve pending members, ban, etc) to also access the Members list. But now, if Members Visible is set to Owners, only owners can access the members list, regardless of whether moderators have any relevant privileges.


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Dave,

I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all
my other various email list providers continue to work well without
having this automatic unsubscribe?
Granted it is still speculation, but my belief with respect to Yahoo Groups is that they stopped upgrades before Yahoo Mail implemented the mechanism. Another possibility is that larger, longer-established services may get a pass from the email services. Or at least better information about the email service's intent when sending the reports.

Some other GMF members and I been trying to consolidate what information is available here:
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam

Eventually I'll want to add citations to it other than just the Wikipedia article, including citing the messages from Mark about it.

Shal


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Dave Sergeant
 

I understand all this, but why do Yahoogroups, Google Groups and all my
other various email list providers continue to work well without having
this automatic unsubscribe? Why have groups.io to do it but everybody
else can seem to manage without having to do anything similar?

Dave

On 20 Mar 2018 at 5:28, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?
It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket. Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer. A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs. And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon




http://davesergeant.com


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

If you make accusations, some of us are going to defend ourselves. Good night.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:07 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

OK, whatever you say.  Not sure why you feel the need to chime in with snarky remarks.  I have a right to ask my questions like anyone else.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 02:04 AM, J_Catlady wrote:

Nobody is being dismissive. It has been explained here many times before.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon








--
J


Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Barbara Byers
 

OK, whatever you say.  Not sure why you feel the need to chime in with snarky remarks.  I have a right to ask my questions like anyone else.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 02:04 AM, J_Catlady wrote:

Nobody is being dismissive. It has been explained here many times before.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon








--
J


Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Nobody is being dismissive. It has been explained here many times before.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon






--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Barbara Byers
 

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon





moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

Walter Underwood
 

I was working on a system and my tech writer kept asking me questions about the permissions. Then she came back with this lovely table of how it all worked. It made much more sense after she explained it to me.

wunder
Walter Underwood
wunder@...
http://observer.wunderwood.org/  (my blog)

On Mar 19, 2018, at 10:24 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:13 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

If you’re looking for more requests because you feel like you’re missing something, I would love to have a specific permission to ‘view notes’ on member pages.  I want to create some more moderators in my group but I’ve been holding off simply because I don’t want them all to have access to all the compiled notes about various members over the years. It can be very confidential and very personal info, including things members have told me Offlist about themselves and their situations. 


Yes. Right now, some permissions grant a lot of extra access (mainly for things that don't currently have separate permissions, like mod notes), that should probably be made more fine grain. This happened as I added features but didn't add additional permissions. I need to go through and list all the missing permissions (or if someone could come up with a list that would help immensely).

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

toki
 

On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?
It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket. Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer. A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs. And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon


moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

 

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:13 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

If you’re looking for more requests because you feel like you’re missing something, I would love to have a specific permission to ‘view notes’ on member pages.  I want to create some more moderators in my group but I’ve been holding off simply because I don’t want them all to have access to all the compiled notes about various members over the years. It can be very confidential and very personal info, including things members have told me Offlist about themselves and their situations. 


Yes. Right now, some permissions grant a lot of extra access (mainly for things that don't currently have separate permissions, like mod notes), that should probably be made more fine grain. This happened as I added features but didn't add additional permissions. I need to go through and list all the missing permissions (or if someone could come up with a list that would help immensely).

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

 

Mark, 

If you’re looking for more requests because you feel like you’re missing something, I would love to have a specific permission to ‘view notes’ on member pages.  I want to create some more moderators in my group but I’ve been holding off simply because I don’t want them all to have access to all the compiled notes about various members over the years. It can be very confidential and very personal info, including things members have told me Offlist about themselves and their situations. 


On Mar 19, 2018, at 9:54 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi All,

I just pushed the following changes:

- There is a new View Member List moderator permission (defaulted unchecked for existing moderators).
- If a group's Members Visible setting is Owners only, it used to be that we allowed moderators with one of the member change privileges (approve pending members, ban, etc) to also access the Members list. But now, if Members Visible is set to Owners, only owners can access the members list, regardless of whether moderators have any relevant privileges.

Please let me know if you see any issues. Adding this permission was a specific request from someone who couldn't accomplish what they needed with the existing permissions. 

I feel like I'm missing some additional permissions (permission to send an email to a member, for example), but dealing with this stuff is a bit of a headache because the permissions system is pretty complicated already.

Thanks,
Mark 

--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Moderator permissions addition/change

 

Hi All,

I just pushed the following changes:

- There is a new View Member List moderator permission (defaulted unchecked for existing moderators).
- If a group's Members Visible setting is Owners only, it used to be that we allowed moderators with one of the member change privileges (approve pending members, ban, etc) to also access the Members list. But now, if Members Visible is set to Owners, only owners can access the members list, regardless of whether moderators have any relevant privileges.

Please let me know if you see any issues. Adding this permission was a specific request from someone who couldn't accomplish what they needed with the existing permissions. 

I feel like I'm missing some additional permissions (permission to send an email to a member, for example), but dealing with this stuff is a bit of a headache because the permissions system is pretty complicated already.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Ronaldo,

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Barbara Byers
 

Good idea, thanks.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 08:21 PM, ro-esp wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 06:49 am, ro-esp wrote:


After some late night reading, it seems to be like this:
some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the address is live...] , and we at iogroups fear that if we don't unsubscribe the member, that emailprovider will move many more iogroups-messages into spamfolders.

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue

                                                                   groetjes, Ronaldo


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

ro-esp
 

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 06:49 am, ro-esp wrote:


I'm not sure why anyone would have a feature unsubscribing people
automatically.
After some late night reading, it seems to be like this:
some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the address is live...] , and we at iogroups fear that if we don't unsubscribe the member, that emailprovider will move many more iogroups-messages into spamfolders.

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue

groetjes, Ronaldo


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Yes, it is a horrible real threat. Read the threads about this in GMF, especially one just now by Bruce Bowman.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:12 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Yes, I already read that, but it doesn't really answer my question, if there is a actual problem to doing nothing.

"...The reason is a concern that if Groups.io were to continue sending messages to that address then the email service provider might "punish" Groups.io by (more frequently) relegating other members' messages to their spam boxes."

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?  Since it seems like members are already being punished by being unsubscribed simply because a message goes into spam and they delete it.  Right?

I fully admit I am not a techie person, so perhaps this is a horrible real threat.  In that case, feel free to be condescending and laugh at me.  It just seems like the automatic unsubscribing is causing a lot of angst, as evidenced by the volume of messages about it.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 06:25 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:

Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Barbara Byers
 

Yes, I already read that, but it doesn't really answer my question, if there is a actual problem to doing nothing.

"...The reason is a concern that if Groups.io were to continue sending messages to that address then the email service provider might "punish" Groups.io by (more frequently) relegating other members' messages to their spam boxes."

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?  Since it seems like members are already being punished by being unsubscribed simply because a message goes into spam and they delete it.  Right?

I fully admit I am not a techie person, so perhaps this is a horrible real threat.  In that case, feel free to be condescending and laugh at me.  It just seems like the automatic unsubscribing is causing a lot of angst, as evidenced by the volume of messages about it.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 06:25 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:

Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce