Date   

moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Barbara Byers
 

Thank you for explaining it and not just being dismissive,

Barb

 


On 2018-03-20 01:28 AM, toki wrote:



On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?

It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket.  Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer.  A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs.  And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon





moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

Walter Underwood
 

I was working on a system and my tech writer kept asking me questions about the permissions. Then she came back with this lovely table of how it all worked. It made much more sense after she explained it to me.

wunder
Walter Underwood
wunder@...
http://observer.wunderwood.org/  (my blog)

On Mar 19, 2018, at 10:24 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:13 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

If you’re looking for more requests because you feel like you’re missing something, I would love to have a specific permission to ‘view notes’ on member pages.  I want to create some more moderators in my group but I’ve been holding off simply because I don’t want them all to have access to all the compiled notes about various members over the years. It can be very confidential and very personal info, including things members have told me Offlist about themselves and their situations. 


Yes. Right now, some permissions grant a lot of extra access (mainly for things that don't currently have separate permissions, like mod notes), that should probably be made more fine grain. This happened as I added features but didn't add additional permissions. I need to go through and list all the missing permissions (or if someone could come up with a list that would help immensely).

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

toki
 

On 03/19/2018 11:12 PM, Barbara Byers wrote:

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?
It is a very real threat. Furthermore, it is something that can easily
escalate up to a plethora of email vendors, even if they don't implement
FBL.

Here is how it escalates.
AOL member sends the list mail to the spam bucket. Member then deletes
the message. AOL sends FBL to Groups.IO. Mark ignores it. Member
receives a second message, which is tossed into the spam bucket, then
deleted. Cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

At some point, AOL's anti-spam bots kick in, and blacklists Groups.IO as
a spammer. A week or two passes, and the email from groups.io hasn't
decreased, so the AOL anti-spam bots escalate the listing up to one of
their upstream RBLs. The RBL adds it to their list, and wham. A small,
but significant number of ISPs start rejecting Groups.IO mail. And since
Groups.IO ignores the FBL, these ISPs escalate to their other RBLs. And
six or so month later, Groups.IO is on everybody's RBL, with no way to
be delisted.

Caveat: I don't know if AOL is as diligent in stopping spammers now, as
it was in its heyday. (Now wondering if AfterBurner was at AOL, or
another site that was frequently considered to be a spam-haven.)

jonathon


moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

 

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:13 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

If you’re looking for more requests because you feel like you’re missing something, I would love to have a specific permission to ‘view notes’ on member pages.  I want to create some more moderators in my group but I’ve been holding off simply because I don’t want them all to have access to all the compiled notes about various members over the years. It can be very confidential and very personal info, including things members have told me Offlist about themselves and their situations. 


Yes. Right now, some permissions grant a lot of extra access (mainly for things that don't currently have separate permissions, like mod notes), that should probably be made more fine grain. This happened as I added features but didn't add additional permissions. I need to go through and list all the missing permissions (or if someone could come up with a list that would help immensely).

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Moderator permissions addition/change

 

Mark, 

If you’re looking for more requests because you feel like you’re missing something, I would love to have a specific permission to ‘view notes’ on member pages.  I want to create some more moderators in my group but I’ve been holding off simply because I don’t want them all to have access to all the compiled notes about various members over the years. It can be very confidential and very personal info, including things members have told me Offlist about themselves and their situations. 


On Mar 19, 2018, at 9:54 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi All,

I just pushed the following changes:

- There is a new View Member List moderator permission (defaulted unchecked for existing moderators).
- If a group's Members Visible setting is Owners only, it used to be that we allowed moderators with one of the member change privileges (approve pending members, ban, etc) to also access the Members list. But now, if Members Visible is set to Owners, only owners can access the members list, regardless of whether moderators have any relevant privileges.

Please let me know if you see any issues. Adding this permission was a specific request from someone who couldn't accomplish what they needed with the existing permissions. 

I feel like I'm missing some additional permissions (permission to send an email to a member, for example), but dealing with this stuff is a bit of a headache because the permissions system is pretty complicated already.

Thanks,
Mark 

--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Moderator permissions addition/change

 

Hi All,

I just pushed the following changes:

- There is a new View Member List moderator permission (defaulted unchecked for existing moderators).
- If a group's Members Visible setting is Owners only, it used to be that we allowed moderators with one of the member change privileges (approve pending members, ban, etc) to also access the Members list. But now, if Members Visible is set to Owners, only owners can access the members list, regardless of whether moderators have any relevant privileges.

Please let me know if you see any issues. Adding this permission was a specific request from someone who couldn't accomplish what they needed with the existing permissions. 

I feel like I'm missing some additional permissions (permission to send an email to a member, for example), but dealing with this stuff is a bit of a headache because the permissions system is pretty complicated already.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Ronaldo,

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Barbara Byers
 

Good idea, thanks.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 08:21 PM, ro-esp wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 06:49 am, ro-esp wrote:


After some late night reading, it seems to be like this:
some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the address is live...] , and we at iogroups fear that if we don't unsubscribe the member, that emailprovider will move many more iogroups-messages into spamfolders.

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue

                                                                   groetjes, Ronaldo


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

ro-esp
 

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 06:49 am, ro-esp wrote:


I'm not sure why anyone would have a feature unsubscribing people
automatically.
After some late night reading, it seems to be like this:
some emailprovider sends a message to the sender when a message lands in a spamfolder [thus sending a confirmation to spammers that the address is live...] , and we at iogroups fear that if we don't unsubscribe the member, that emailprovider will move many more iogroups-messages into spamfolders.

maybe we should wait until Mark F can shed some light on this issue

groetjes, Ronaldo


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

Yes, it is a horrible real threat. Read the threads about this in GMF, especially one just now by Bruce Bowman.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:12 PM, Barbara Byers <babmay11@...> wrote:

Yes, I already read that, but it doesn't really answer my question, if there is a actual problem to doing nothing.

"...The reason is a concern that if Groups.io were to continue sending messages to that address then the email service provider might "punish" Groups.io by (more frequently) relegating other members' messages to their spam boxes."

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?  Since it seems like members are already being punished by being unsubscribed simply because a message goes into spam and they delete it.  Right?

I fully admit I am not a techie person, so perhaps this is a horrible real threat.  In that case, feel free to be condescending and laugh at me.  It just seems like the automatic unsubscribing is causing a lot of angst, as evidenced by the volume of messages about it.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 06:25 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:

Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Barbara Byers
 

Yes, I already read that, but it doesn't really answer my question, if there is a actual problem to doing nothing.

"...The reason is a concern that if Groups.io were to continue sending messages to that address then the email service provider might "punish" Groups.io by (more frequently) relegating other members' messages to their spam boxes."

Is this a real negative or just speculation of what "might" happen?  Since it seems like members are already being punished by being unsubscribed simply because a message goes into spam and they delete it.  Right?

I fully admit I am not a techie person, so perhaps this is a horrible real threat.  In that case, feel free to be condescending and laugh at me.  It just seems like the automatic unsubscribing is causing a lot of angst, as evidenced by the volume of messages about it.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 06:25 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:

Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

 

It seems to be groundhog day around here...

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 3:25 PM, Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:
Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Bruce Bowman
 

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:02 pm, Barbara Byers wrote:
Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/6243

Bruce


moderated Re: order of sending welcome message and group guidelines #suggestion

 

Mark,

Thanks. I will email you at support about at least one situation that does not fit this - namely, an email address that already had an account was sent a confirmation email after requesting membership via email. (Before doing that, I will run the test again. I think I ran it several times already but will do that again to be sure.)

In general, why are the two sequences - request join via email and request join via the web - so different? It is confusing to moderators (at least this one:). I would assume (and was assuming) that in both cases, the confirmation email and the pending subscription notice are sent immediately upon the join request. Yet you say here that in the case of requesting via email, they have to confirm before receiving the notice. Is there a reason why? I ask because it would give me some guidance about when to query them outside the system about whether they've received the pending notice. And also, if it is at all possible, it would be more helpful and clear if in both cases, they were done the same way.

Also: could you also possibly add to these sequences the "appropriate messages to moderators" that you said you've left out here? I sometimes have no idea what's going on when I see a pending member without an NC, or with an NC. I look in their email delivery history to see what they've last been sent (but that is often less than illuminating). Sometimes I will immediately "resent" the pending subscription notice, but now I see that in some cases, they were not SUPPOSED to have been sent it yet. I would like to know precisely when in these sequences the "appropriate message to moderators" are sent.

Finally: I understood, perhaps wrongly, that in a premium group, once we approve the membership it also confirms them. I have some memory of when you made that change. Yet recently, there have been several members we've approved who are still NC. Did this change, or am I misremembering?

Thanks!
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Yahoo screwup today

 

Great!
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Yahoo screwup today

 

J

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 8:18 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I'm glad this was fixed, but as a heads up, I'm not sure it does anything about the bug I sent you yesterday, where I'm getting log entries that banned members are bouncing. It happened to be a yahoo-email member yesterday, so I thought at first it was part of the yahoo snafu, but I don't think it is. It's probably an easy fix. 

I've changed it and you should no longer get bouncing or unbouncing log entries for banned people.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: Y!G transfer and collapse topics

Benoît Dumeaux
 

Video off the problem


moderated Calendar defaults

Bruce Carter
 

Could there be an addition to allow us to set the defaults?  Right now it defaults to all day event, then unchecked it defaults to one hour.  The vast majority of our events are half hour.  Also, it would be nice to set up default notifications.  Right now it defaults to none.  If I could pre-set these things in my group, it would save a lot of time.


moderated Re: order of sending welcome message and group guidelines #suggestion

 

Hi J,

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 3:49 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
There seem to be some anomalies between the relative chronologies of member confirmation, sending of the Welcome Notice, and sending of the Group Guidelines (if set to be sent on join).


Here are the steps involved in subscribing, via web or via email, as I just verified on my test machine:

Subscribe via web (ignoring appropriate messages to the moderators):

- If new user, create the user as not confirmed, send a confirmation email to them.
- Add a subscription to the group. If the group is restricted, this is a pending subscription.
- If the group is restricted, send the active pending subscription notice, if any, otherwise, send the welcome notice and guidelines.


Subscribe via email (ignoring appropriate messages to the moderators):
- If new user, create the user as not confirmed.
- Send a subscription confirmation email.
- Upon receipt of a reply to that subscription confirmation email:
  - Add a subscription to the group. If the group is restricted, this is a pending subscription.
  - If the group is restricted, send the active pending subscription notice, if any, otherwise send the welcome notice and guidelines.


Approve subscription via web:
- Send the group guidelines and active welcome message, if any.

Approve subscription via email:
- Send the group guidelines and active welcome message, if any.


Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: automatic deletion, why?

Barbara Byers
 

My recommendation would be to do nothing.  Stop unsubscribing them.  It seems like the subscriber needs to fix it themselves.  Maybe I am just missing it, but why does groups.io care if their emails go to a spam folder, it's not their (groups.io) fault and they (groups.io) can't control it.

Barb

 


On 2018-03-19 03:50 PM, RickGlaz wrote:

I think I nailed the bug, but a second opinion from the OP is still reassuring...
Sorry if I'm rushing too much...

RickGlaz

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:29 am, RickGlaz wrote:

Remember how Screwed up Yahoo Groups got when they loaded it up with lots
of extra stuff. Be Careful what you ask for... ;-(

Speaking of which, I'm chasing an error in sending...
I've set up the correct scenario.
IF "groetjes, Ronaldo" (ONLY) sees my/this exact reply come back more than once
PLEASE let me know either way. 1, 2, etc...

Rick

On March 19, 2018 at 9:49 AM ro-esp <ro-esp@...> wrote:


I'm not sure why anyone would have a feature unsubscribing people
automatically. Wouldn it be far more practical if messages being sent
back or reported as spam would trigger a message to the moderator like:

message such-and such was reported as spam by pq@.../ sent back by
provider xxyy. Do you wish to contact the member or unsubscribe him/her
?


groetjes, Ronaldo