Date   

moderated Status Results in Sent Invitations

 

Mark,

I invited a bunch of high school buddies to my reunion group. As expected, some have accepted, many are still pending ("Sent"), and some Failed.

Unexpected was that some are "Deferred" - Does that mean they will be retried until they are either "Sent" or "Failed"? They seem to be either MX lookup failures or i/o timeout. The MX failures are probably typos or other problems with the addresses, but the i/o timeouts I can't guess at.

Also unexpected was one of the failures: "Failed - force failed". Unlike the rest of the failures that one doesn't have a 500 code in the status. What does that mean? Did the failure happen on Groups.io's side?

Shal


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 01:56 pm, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
You all are doing a wonderful job at dealing with us.
Agreed.:) Thanks, Mark!
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

Sarah k Alawami
 

Hey, thanks for that. I'll take that as a compromise. You all are doing a wonderful job at dealing with us. Lol!

Blessings and happy Thursday

On Sep 28, 2017, at 1:16 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Hi All,

Group guidelines messages now have a new checkbox, Private. When checked, only group members will be able to view the guidelines. It is not checked by default.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

Hi All,

Group guidelines messages now have a new checkbox, Private. When checked, only group members will be able to view the guidelines. It is not checked by default.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

Jeremy H
 

The bottom line for this issue is that different owners and different groups will for different reasons (good or bad) come to different conclusions as to whether their 'guidelines' should be publicly visible (i,e. to non-members), not least because of differing opinions on what to have in them, in the same way that they have different views on what else of their group should be visible.

As it would not seem to be difficult to have a setting for this (either under privacy or guidelines settings), that is the way I would urge Mark to go - then hopefully we can all be be happy in our different ways.

The other two elements which seem (at present) always to be publicly visible are the group's home page, and list of subgroups (at least those 'listed in parent group') - I would say that at the very least there is a case for having an option to make these visible only to members.

Jeremy
 


   


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 08:38 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
That doesn't mean that I would find the Guideline page completely unusable if it remains members-only. Nor does it mean that I would object to having its visibility be a group option.
Shal, that's great to hear, because for me it would unusable if were public. I don't see why anyone here would object to a simple option (or a correspondence "public guidelines for a public group"). I need the *detailed* group rules/guidelines to be mailed out every month, accessible on the site, and mailable to individuals when needed. It would be useless for me to have a watered down, overly general summary of them in the tab, because then I would *still* have the problem that caused me to request this feature in the beginning - I would still have to mail the details out by hand every month, maintain them in separate places, etc. And in our group's case it would be, for various reasons, inappropriate and possibly even harmful to the group to include all the details of our group rules in a tab available to the public.

I hope that Mark finds a way to compromise on this. 
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

J,

My point is that in yahoo, and before the guidelines tab in
groups.io, nobody complained that group guidelines were not available
until they joined a group.
It's true - we worked with what we had.

Beta@ is about improving the Groups.io service. I think the Guidelines page was a good step forward, but I also think that making it members-only was a step backwards. Hence my disagreement with that change.

I've said what I need to say about why I think the Guidelines page is a more useful feature if it is a public page, an adjunct to the Home page.

That doesn't mean that I would find the Guideline page completely unusable if it remains members-only. Nor does it mean that I would object to having its visibility be a group option.

Shal

--
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

I haven't had a chance to read all the arguments yet, but it's clear we're generating more heat than light at this point. I'm moderating this topic.

Mark


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

Duane
 

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:06 pm, J_Catlady wrote:


On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 04:24 am, Duane wrote:


So where would you be able to find a group site with as many features and
responsive support if you had to move because of public guidelines?
I guess you'd be out of luck.
I was referring to you. To me, a deal-breaker means that the situation/condition is unacceptable. Because of this, I had assumed that you'd leave groups.io if it didn't happen your way. Now that you've explained that it's not a deal-breaker, just an inconvenience, you won't need to look for another site.

Duane


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

J,

          You want to make this personal, I do not.

           If you wish to believe that your group is typical then that's your call.  I'll leave it at that.

           Most often people don't have all that much to say about an early feature proposal.  When that proposal enters active development and early beta stage it is entirely natural that others will take an increased interest.

            And how or why you believe that I'm using the beta group as a template of some sort is a complete mystery.  As I've said, my exposure to online groups has been extensive and goes well beyond groups.io.   I started out when Usenet was still king, which should give you some idea of just how long I've been interacting with online groups in various guises.  I'm not operating in a vacuum.

--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)
I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.
    ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's 
            Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:02 am, Shal Farley wrote:
You're conflating different things.Yahoo Groups don't have a Guidelines tab, and Groups.io has only had it a short while - and during that time it has always (until now) been public.

You're talking about the Pending and/or Welcome notices. Those are still sent in private emails.
Shal, I'm not conflating anything. My point is that in yahoo, and before the guidelines tab in groups.io, nobody complained that group guidelines were not available until they joined a group. Nobody demanded that the guidelines should be made public in case a potential member didn't like them and didn't want to join a group on the basis of the guidelines, nobody screamed that potential members should know what they're getting into (as people in this thread have been doing), nobody cited "prevailing norms" because there WERE no prevailing norms. The guidelines tab exists only because I pushed and pushed Mark for it over the past year. Nobody even cared that it was not there! Now it's suddenly of earth-shattering importance that they be made public. They didn't exist at all before and no one cared or complained. So how is this logical? 
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 04:00 pm, Brian Vogel wrote:
  It is long past time to realize that groups.io is not all about you and your groups
Brian, I never thought that it was. You, OTOH, seem to think you know everything about groups, and what the prevailing norms are. It is high time for YOU to stop spouting that someone's group is not the "prevailing norm" and that they therefore should be ignored whenever someone disagrees with your opinion. This beta group is very small. You have no idea how representative it is or is not of prevailing norms.

The last time we disagreed, you spouted the same gibberish, and you called me a megalomaniac, because I didn't think it was appropriate for group owners to have to ask permission from groups.io to delete their groups. Beta blowhards were all over this, spouting the same nonsense. Mark, very reasonably, did not implement that. I wonder whether you have any theories as to why he did not.
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

J,

          It is long past time to realize that groups.io is not all about you and your groups.

          You have had many great ideas, and you have had many idiosyncratic ideas.  It's not all about you, even if you originate the idea for something.  That's why a group like beta exists.  Not everything that you want will be something you get, and you seem to be mightily pissed when others have ideas that differ from your vision of what something should be.

           I also have been around groups online since the 1980s, so I am quite willing to say that I have quite a decent sense of how groups as a whole tend (note tend) to operate.  You can pretend otherwise if you feel like doing so, it won't change the fact that decades of familiarity give someone (and not just me) valuable perspective.

--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)
I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.
    ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's 
            Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

Plus, the idea that I am "responsible for finding my own workaround" for a feature that I suggested to begin with is laughable. You like to call my group "different" and haul out so-called "good design principles" of pleasing the majority. You actually have no idea how many groups are like mine in this regard or any other.
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

Call it the rule book, call it guidelines, call it whatever you want. I happened to coin the original term in my original suggestion for this tab and in MY group, the guidelines are the rule book. They need to be sent to new members, sent to the group once a month, and be always at hand and available to group members on the site.

Those were MY three conditions, and MY suggestions, and they applied to MY group, which was the reason I suggested and then pushed for this feature in the first place, starting many months ago.

So please don't preach about hiw guidelines 'should' be general in nature or 'should' not contain private information or 'should' be this, that, or the io they. The guidelines are the rules, the code of conduct, or whatever you want to call them. But they contain whatever the group owner wants them to include. They could include the Shakespearean sonnets for all I care. It's not the place of anyone here to dictate content. 

Whatever it's called, if I can't have it go out to group members automatically upon joining, be sent once a month to the group, be available on the site to members, and be maintainable in one place, then it's worthless to me and I'm back where I started, doing all of it by hand. 

Its interesting how people are so fixated now on having this be publicly available in all groups, whether the group  likes it or not, when they were indifferent (and in some cases, plainly against) the whole concept to begin with.
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Good design cannot be all things to all people and has to take the most common cases (note, plural) into account.

Guidelines are not, in the vast majority of cases, considered "the rulebook" but are introductory in nature and give a high level overview.  Phrases such as, "there are very strict rules which must be followed to participate in this group," should be more than enough for guidelines.  If someone wants the forum/list rules there should be some way to request same, even if it is done by individual request. 

Those who have guidelines that are far more restrictive than "the average group" are indeed responsible for finding their own workarounds.  If those are actually the rule book then they're really not guidelines.  If the workarounds to split one from the other are "deal breakers" then they're "deal breakers."

--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)
I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.
    ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's 
            Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 04:24 am, Duane wrote:
So where would you be able to find a group site with as many features and responsive support if you had to move because of public guidelines?
I guess you'd be out of luck. 

The issue is that publishing heavy guidelines - as our group's are - without an opportunity to also publish, in an illustrative manner, what people get in exchange is bad advertising. And there is no way to simply state, even within the guideline document, the benefits that members reap from our group. They have to experience it.

Your group may be different. Others undoubtedly are. Please don't try to generalize or use sarcasm. Our group is serious and is saving cats' lives literally all over the world. Other groups are doing freecycle. Sometimes there's no comparison. The only way we can be successful at what we're doing is to have strict guidelines. If someone joins the group and realizes that we are saving their cat's life when their vet was not, they gladly put up with the necessary guidelines. If all they can see before joining the group are the two pages of rules, they are much less likely to join and we are likely to save one less cat's life.

If guidelines - which are turning out to be my Frankenstein monster - are made public in all groups, without the option to turn that off or without a compromise of making them public only in groups with public archives, I will simply toss them out and go back to the old way, as inconvenient as it was.
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually this was a public list that anyone could join. The link was out there for the world.  But anyway, there you go. I think the guide lines should if the mod wants them be public so users know what they are getting into and they can join if they so choose.

Take care all.

On Sep 26, 2017, at 10:55 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:03 am, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
One example was: "using the BCC field for this list is off limits." Um? So I agree that guidelines should be possible to the public, if the owner chooses so.
Well, if it was a private group it makes sense that BCC: would be forbidden (as it could be used as a way to circulate material to individuals who were not members of the private group) and CC: would be unnecessary if one is communicating inside the group, which is pretty much the expectation whether it's private or public.  If you were sending a private message you'd simply e-mail a group member off list or use a mechanism like Groups.io offers to do same.

I don't think it should have to do with owner choice.  If an owner does not want public guidelines then they can choose not to employ them or use a single line much like has been used with regard to references on resumes forever:   Guidelines furnished upon request.

That phrase should be the bare minimum if one publishes anything at all as Guidelines.  That still leaves a group as a black box, by and large, but if the owner and/or moderator(s) reliably follow through with furnishing the actual guidelines privately before actual membership is granted that gives the prospective member the information they need to make an informed decision.   If no information regarding a group's guidelines is forthcoming when requested then you really have to question why.

To put a slight twist on Groucho Marx:  "I wouldn't want to be a member of a club that won't tell me what it's about."
 
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)
I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.
    ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's 
            Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:03 am, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
One example was: "using the BCC field for this list is off limits." Um? So I agree that guidelines should be possible to the public, if the owner chooses so.
Well, if it was a private group it makes sense that BCC: would be forbidden (as it could be used as a way to circulate material to individuals who were not members of the private group) and CC: would be unnecessary if one is communicating inside the group, which is pretty much the expectation whether it's private or public.  If you were sending a private message you'd simply e-mail a group member off list or use a mechanism like Groups.io offers to do same.

I don't think it should have to do with owner choice.  If an owner does not want public guidelines then they can choose not to employ them or use a single line much like has been used with regard to references on resumes forever:   Guidelines furnished upon request.

That phrase should be the bare minimum if one publishes anything at all as Guidelines.  That still leaves a group as a black box, by and large, but if the owner and/or moderator(s) reliably follow through with furnishing the actual guidelines privately before actual membership is granted that gives the prospective member the information they need to make an informed decision.   If no information regarding a group's guidelines is forthcoming when requested then you really have to question why.

To put a slight twist on Groucho Marx:  "I wouldn't want to be a member of a club that won't tell me what it's about."
 
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)
I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.
    ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's 
            Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe


moderated Re: CORRECTION: Event: Database Upgrade, Wednesday, 27 September 2017 #downtime #cal-invite

Sarah k Alawami
 

So am I. I might let my list know though just in case someone desides to send an email and it brake. My list though is  so low traffic for now that it should not matter. lol! It's best to cover my but though, you know?

Take care all.

On Sep 25, 2017, at 9:53 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

 I'm still guessing that email will still be ok
"Emails sent during this time will be queued and sent when the site is back up."
--
J
 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


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