Date   

moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

I amended that to suggest that they be made public in groups with public archives.

And YOU have "other options" for the guidelines if you want them publicly available to people who have not joined yet: put them on your home page. Oh, the home page doesn't have enough space, but the guidelines tab is? You're welcome. :)
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

J,

Why not make them public for public (unrestricted) groups and private
for private (restricted) groups?
Precisely for the reason I stated: in a restricted group I believe the prospective member deserves to know what the rules will be before committing to join the group.

... or make them public iff the group has public archives.
Same answer. I think restricted groups are likely to have private archives.

Shal

--
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:33 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
You have other options for private information, including a pinned message and the group's Wiki.

Shal, why do you care so much about this? The guidelines tab were my idea in the first place. I never in a million years expected them to be made public. You even fought (as I recall) having the guidelines tab and now it is so important to you that it be public?
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

Seriously. It's not just about the presence or absence of private information. The guidelines alone, without group membership, are "the bad news without the good news." Our guidelines are particularly strict with respect to factual information, sources, responses to group members' questions by non-experts, etc. They comprise a couple of pages. When people join the group, they immediately see how much we have to offer in the way of help, information, and support. The guidelines alone - which were (until Mark fixed this) all that were visible about our group beyond the home page - presents a disincentive for people to join. With the guidelines private (as they used to be, and still should be), when they do join, they get a copy of the guidelines, but they ALSO see all the friendly conversations that have transpired, they are directed to the hugely informational group files, their first posts are answered thoroughly and with care and they are invariably warmly welcomed by lots of other group members. The guidelines are just the small "price" they have to pay. Just their part of the "bargain" in order to reap the benefit of being in the group. They should not be hit over the head with the guidelines alone without also being privy to the benefits of membership.
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

J,

I would have to create a completely separate document that I would
have to send out separately, ...
You have other options for private information, including a pinned message and the group's Wiki.

One particular thing in our group was the signature below the
guidelines, consisting of the entire administrative team for my
group. That information should not be public.
That information sounds more suitable for the Welcome message. In the Guidelines you can use the +owner address, which is an alias for all of the administrative team.

Shal

--
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

Haha.;)

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:22 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

J,

Tell that to the groups whose guidelines DO contain private
information ...
Dear groups whose guidelines DO contain private information,

Please take the private information out of your Guidelines.

Yours sincerely,

Shal


and have been relying on that.
Can't have been. Guidelines have only existed for a short time, and have been public that entire time.

Shal

--
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

J,

Tell that to the groups whose guidelines DO contain private
information ...
Dear groups whose guidelines DO contain private information,

Please take the private information out of your Guidelines.

Yours sincerely,

Shal


and have been relying on that.
Can't have been. Guidelines have only existed for a short time, and have been public that entire time.

Shal

--
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:08 pm, Tony Moody wrote:
Otherwise how do they know what they are letting
themselves in for?
The same way they always didL join the group, be sent a copy of the group guidelines (please remember: these used to be sent in private emails, to members only) and find out, and leave if it doesn't suit them.

This has NEVER been made public before and there was no problem. Not in yahoo groups, and not here, until *I* (silly me) proposed the "guidelines" tab and the guidelines entity and the whole shebang. It was my idea and I now am almost wishing I'd never suggested it or pushed on it. If I'd known it was going to be made public, I would not have wasted my energy. And if it's made public without an option to turn that off, I simply won't use it.
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

Tony Moody
 

I am with Shal on this one.

For prospective members to a restricted group it would be good to be able to read a set of the
guidelines on-line (or be sent them). Otherwise how do they know what they are letting
themselves in for?

OK,
Tony

On 25 Sep 2017 at 18:18, Shal Farley wrote about :
Subject : Re: [beta] "Guidelines" now publicl

Mark,

> I have changed the group guidelines to only be visible to subscribers.

I disagree with this change.

It makes it difficult for a group with Restricted membership to let
prospective members know what the rules will be if they join the group.
I don't want to make the whole of the Wiki public for just that page,
nor all of Messages certainly.

Having the Guidelines be public seemed like the perfect solution. I
doesn't make sense to me that a group's guidelines would contain any
private information.

The Pending member notification is almost good enough for this, but even
for this the person must make the decision to apply for membership
before they are told the rules they'll be expected to follow. Seems a
little like bait-and-switch to me.

(And, of course, having to keep a second copy of the guidelines in the
Pending notice would violate J's abhorrence for maintaining multiple
copies - not that I'm actually very concerned by that issue).

Shal

--
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum



moderated Re: Event: Database Upgrade, Tuesday, 26 September 2017 #downtime #cal-invite

Dave Sergeant
 

And now Thursday morning, long time yet...

Dave

On 26 Sep 2017 at 6:45, Dave Sergeant wrote:

I always struggle trying to work out what your times are in ours. I
think it is 5am-6am UK time Wednesday morning so hopefully most of us
will still be in the land of nod. But thanks for the warning.

Dave

On 25 Sep 2017 at 9:03, main@beta.groups.io Calendar wrote:

When: Tuesday, 26 September 2017
9:00pm to 10:00pm
(GMT-07:00) America/Los Angeles
Description: The site will be down for a database upgrade. Emails sent
during this time will be queued and sent when the site is back up.
This is a required prerequisite to switching to the new search system,
and is the only downtime I anticipate needing for that. The actual
switchover to the new search will probably happen in another week. I
will put up a banner on the site during the day tomorrow announcing
the downtime.

http://davesergeant.com




http://davesergeant.com


moderated Re: Event: Database Upgrade, Tuesday, 26 September 2017 #downtime #cal-invite

Dave Sergeant
 

I always struggle trying to work out what your times are in ours. I
think it is 5am-6am UK time Wednesday morning so hopefully most of us
will still be in the land of nod. But thanks for the warning.

Dave

On 25 Sep 2017 at 9:03, main@beta.groups.io Calendar wrote:

When: Tuesday, 26 September 2017
9:00pm to 10:00pm
(GMT-07:00) America/Los Angeles
Description: The site will be down for a database upgrade. Emails sent
during this time will be queued and sent when the site is back up. This
is a required prerequisite to switching to the new search system, and is
the only downtime I anticipate needing for that. The actual switchover
to the new search will probably happen in another week. I will put up a
banner on the site during the day tomorrow announcing the downtime.

http://davesergeant.com


moderated Re: CORRECTION: Event: Database Upgrade, Wednesday, 27 September 2017 #downtime #cal-invite

 

 I'm still guessing that email will still be ok
"Emails sent during this time will be queued and sent when the site is back up."
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: CORRECTION: Event: Database Upgrade, Wednesday, 27 September 2017 #downtime #cal-invite

Sarah k Alawami
 

No worries. I'm still guessing that email will still be ok and that if someone happens to send a message to my list during the down time it will still get through? I'm guessing yet, but it never hurts to ask.

Take care all.

On Sep 25, 2017, at 5:49 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:

Oops. I made a scheduling error. The downtime will be Wednesday, September 27, 2017, not tomorrow as first announced. I forgot that I had a previously scheduled dinner tomorrow night.

Thanks,
Mark



moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

...or make them public iff the group has public archives. Something like that.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 8:43 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Why not make them public for public (unrestricted) groups and private for private (restricted) groups?
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

Why not make them public for public (unrestricted) groups and private for private (restricted) groups?
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

I thought we'd been over all this already.
J

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 7:29 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 06:52 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
J, what are the reasons you'd like the guidelines to be private?
I'm responding to these in order. One particular thing in our group was the signature below the guidelines, consisting of the entire administrative team for my group. That information should not be public. There are other, more intimate ways of phrasing things that I would leave out or re-word if the guidelines had to be public. There are details that I would leave out, and those details need to be included. Making the guidelines public is a deal-breaker for me. I would have to create a completely separate document that I would have to send out separately, and all the convenience of having a guideline entity at all would be down the drain.

At minimum, please make the visibility a group option.

Thanks for your consideration.

--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 06:52 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
J, what are the reasons you'd like the guidelines to be private?
I'm responding to these in order. One particular thing in our group was the signature below the guidelines, consisting of the entire administrative team for my group. That information should not be public. There are other, more intimate ways of phrasing things that I would leave out or re-word if the guidelines had to be public. There are details that I would leave out, and those details need to be included. Making the guidelines public is a deal-breaker for me. I would have to create a completely separate document that I would have to send out separately, and all the convenience of having a guideline entity at all would be down the drain.

At minimum, please make the visibility a group option.

Thanks for your consideration.

--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 06:18 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
I doesn't make sense to me that a group's guidelines would contain any private information.
Tell that to the groups whose guidelines DO contain private information and have been relying on that. If it's going to be public, just let me know and I'll remove the private info.

Now that it's private, I've restored it to its former state. If it can be an option, I'll check the box. It was a shock to find out that it had suddenly become public. 
 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author, especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

> I have changed the group guidelines to only be visible to subscribers.

I disagree with this change.

It makes it difficult for a group with Restricted membership to let prospective members know what the rules will be if they join the group. I don't want to make the whole of the Wiki public for just that page, nor all of Messages certainly.

That's a good point. J, what are the reasons you'd like the guidelines to be private?

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: "Guidelines" now publicly visible! #suggestion #bug

 

Mark,

I have changed the group guidelines to only be visible to subscribers.
I disagree with this change.

It makes it difficult for a group with Restricted membership to let prospective members know what the rules will be if they join the group. I don't want to make the whole of the Wiki public for just that page, nor all of Messages certainly.

Having the Guidelines be public seemed like the perfect solution. I doesn't make sense to me that a group's guidelines would contain any private information.

The Pending member notification is almost good enough for this, but even for this the person must make the decision to apply for membership before they are told the rules they'll be expected to follow. Seems a little like bait-and-switch to me.

(And, of course, having to keep a second copy of the guidelines in the Pending notice would violate J's abhorrence for maintaining multiple copies - not that I'm actually very concerned by that issue).

Shal

--
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum

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