Date   

moderated Re: Date format settings #suggestion

Dave Sergeant
 

A late comer to this thread. Mark, I hope you can arrange for us to select the European date format DD/MM/YYYY as an option. Your MM/DD/YYYY is totally confusing for us in the UK and leads to all sorts of misunderstanding. I have enabled absolute dates in my settings (ie Feb 21st 2017) but the MM/DD/YYYY keeps appearing in all sorts of places. We are looking to move one of our groups over from Yahoogroups to a new one I created today but we really need proper UK times and dates.



moderated Re: another loophole to moderated topic: changing subject line

 

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 09:57 am, Mark Fletcher wrote:
it removes all threading information from the message headers. At least in that case, there is no reliable way for us to know it was a reply to another message.

Darn it! 

 I think that creating new threads via changed subject lines is generally a good thing, no?

I used to think so, but I've completely stopped doing it myself in my group, and I've started to discourage group members from doing it. The problem is that what happens is you get two of the same thread floating around, because some people continue to respond to the prior (first-named) email thread as they go through their inbox. Then things can get really confusing. At one point recently in my group, we had about five threads on the same subject. We had the original thread that someone started, then I tried to rename it to add the cat's name. Then people were responding to both of them (and thereby missing all the ones in between in the OTHER one), so I tried to merge them into one. I don't remember the chronological sequence any more but it was a MESS! I tried to lock one (or more) of the original ones to force everybody into the same conversation, and somehow they kept proliferating. People responding via email were not locked out, and the rest were, and it got really, really crazy! (Thank goodness this particular topic was not a controversial one.) I reached the conclusion that it's almost never a good idea to rename or split a thread, and I now avoid it at all costs! At minimum, it causes me to have to continually merge new one-post threads starting up by people who are responding by email.

If someone is doing this to deliberately get around a lock or moderated topic, I'd think that'd be reason to at the very least put them on moderation.

That's true, and I think this would happen rarely. It's more a matter of email vs web responders. That said, it's hard to discern motive, and harder politically to accuse someone of doing this. It's easier just to put the thread itself on moderation (or so I used to think), so as not to be singling anyone out. But now I realize it just doesn't work.

I'm finally getting over a cold

Feel better! :-)

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Group.IO & Scalling

 

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 2:18 AM, toki <toki.kantoor@...> wrote:
All:

This probably is the wrong place to ask, but anyway.

What would happen to Groups.IO if:

a) YahooGroups was merged into Groups.IO?

b) All of the lists on YahooGroups migrated to Groups.IO, over the
course of between three and six months?

Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria! Nah.

This is already happening, in a way. I don't have the exact number, but I think something around 1000 groups have already moved from Yahoo to Groups.io.

I've put a lot of work into making it easy to transfer groups to Groups.io. I wouldn't be interested in taking over Yahoo Groups, even if the opportunity presented itself. There are lots of issues with Yahoo Groups, lots of deadwood/spam, baggage from years of neglect, all the legacy code, tied to the Yahoo codebase. 


Whilst both of those are between unlikely, and extremely unlikely, I've
been asked that by a list-owner that has concerns about YahooGroup's
future, but doesn't want to migrate somewhere, only to face another
migration two or three years down the road.

One of my goals with Groups.io has been to create a self-sustaining business, not based on uncertainties of having to sell advertising. As part of that, it's important that group owners don't feel that they are locked in or trapped with Groups.io; you can download the archives and member list at any time, and I'll be adding the ability to download the other aspects of your group as well.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: another loophole to moderated topic: changing subject line

 

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 9:05 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

I've just discovered another loophole to locking or moderating a topic: a member replying by email can simply make one trivial change to the subject line and keep it going without being moderated or locked out. (This is related to the other loophole I found recently, wherein if the topic had *already* been split or had its subject change, locking or moderating it doesn't work because people can still successfully reply to the *previous* email thread.)

When you change the subject, even just a bit, in Gmail, it removes all threading information from the message headers. At least in that case, there is no reliable way for us to know it was a reply to another message.

Plus, I think that creating new threads via changed subject lines is generally a good thing, no?
 

Perhaps this was already known, but my conclusion is that there is no way to effectively lock or moderate topics unless groups.io is somehow able to match threading with actually the same (but renamed) threads. I'm really hoping that this is technically feasible. Meanwhile already adjusted to the fact that I can no longer actually lock or moderate threads and must resort to cajoling. :)

If someone is doing this to deliberately get around a lock or moderated topic, I'd think that'd be reason to at the very least put them on moderation.

(I'm a bit behind on emails, as I'm finally getting over a cold I've been fighting).

Thanks,
Mark


moderated another loophole to moderated topic: changing subject line

 

I've just discovered another loophole to locking or moderating a topic: a member replying by email can simply make one trivial change to the subject line and keep it going without being moderated or locked out. (This is related to the other loophole I found recently, wherein if the topic had *already* been split or had its subject change, locking or moderating it doesn't work because people can still successfully reply to the *previous* email thread.)

Perhaps this was already known, but my conclusion is that there is no way to effectively lock or moderate topics unless groups.io is somehow able to match threading with actually the same (but renamed) threads. I'm really hoping that this is technically feasible. Meanwhile already adjusted to the fact that I can no longer actually lock or moderate threads and must resort to cajoling. :)

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Group.IO & Scalling

toki
 

All:

This probably is the wrong place to ask, but anyway.

What would happen to Groups.IO if:

a) YahooGroups was merged into Groups.IO?

b) All of the lists on YahooGroups migrated to Groups.IO, over the
course of between three and six months?

Whilst both of those are between unlikely, and extremely unlikely, I've
been asked that by a list-owner that has concerns about YahooGroup's
future, but doesn't want to migrate somewhere, only to face another
migration two or three years down the road.

jonathon


moderated Re: Member Kicked off our io. group (and a request to Mark)

Donald Hellen
 

Tina . . .


On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 03:36:28 +0100, "Tina" <homesteading@gmx.com>
wrote:

We have a lot of "more mature" members on our list and many of them are not tech inclined at all. Sometimes the smallest mistake or action can send them into a real tizzy so gentle handling is always advisable Tina
I am sure the email providers didn't think about the many who are PC
and internet challenged and find it difficult to deal with things like
spam folders and automatic unsubscribes when they set all of this up.
I've seen nothing really helpful from my internet provider on this and
had to find out myself how to work around the spam filter and folder.

I found this out when I was helping an older friend in his 70s who had
some expected messages never showing up in his inbox. I then found out
I could have my spam delivered to my inbox and marked as spam, which
doesn't send out any unsubscribe messages and lets me deal with it
myself. But unless my friend had his issues with undelivered email, I
might not have found this out and would miss some email myself. It's
not covered plainly in anything I ever got from the cable company.
While they provide 5 free email addresses, they don't make it easy for
people to set it up to use in an email program, though they will help
you through their support system. But you have to call and ask for
help, and you have to be able to follow directions from people who
aren't the best at explaining things.


Donald


moderated Re: Member Kicked off our io. group (and a request to Mark)

 

Ronaldo,

sent through io-groups (?)
Sent through any list service that engages with the mail service to receive FBL reports.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email)

Note: the penalty for not engaging may be rejection of your service's messages to any and all subscribers.

That must be the worst idea since boxby
It wouldn't be quite so bad if it were limited to explicitly marking messages. But it has been observed with certain email services that no specific marking is required: a message that is delivered to the spam folder via the service's filter, and then not marked as "not spam" by the user, suffices.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Re: Member Kicked off our io. group (and a request to Mark)

ro-esp
 

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 04:18 pm, Donald Hellen wrote:

Recently, many ISPs and email services have implemented a new
"feature" that was supposed to reduce spam for their email users. When
you mark a message
sent through io-groups (?)

as spam in one of these email services, it sends
out an unsubscribe request to groups.io.
That must be the worst idea since boxby

groetjes, Ronaldo


moderated edit option to remove ellipses for explicit (purposeful) quotations #suggestion

 

In a recent post to my group, I explicitly quoted an excerpt of another group member's prior message (from about a year ago). I did this by copying and pasting the excerpt I wanted to refer to in my message. Unfortunately, the excerpt was "disappeared" by the over-zealous ellipses top-posting feature.

I tried to undo the ellipses by editing the message, but there seems to be no way to do that. I went into "edit message," with my intention being to pull the text out of the ellipses and make it explicit; but when I went into edit, the ellipses were no longer there. You go into edit and the ellipses disappear; you just read the message in the message list, and the ellipses are there and the excerpted/quoted text is invisible.

It would be helpful to have an edit option "remove ellipses" for situations like this. 

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: calendar event rsvp

Ro
 

Yes, I like 2, then any payment issue falls on the owner


Ro

with Silk gazing over the fence, and Sally, Handy, Feliz &  Police Kitty patrolling in the Great Beyond.





From: beta@groups.io <beta@groups.io> on behalf of Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 12:46 PM
To: beta@groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] calendar event rsvp
 
On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Ro <recarlton@...> wrote:

Recently we had an event with limited rsvp.  One member left the group before the event.  We discovered that, unlike Meetup, there is no setting for the group owner to delete an RSVP.   Please consider adding this function Mark.  there is some muttering in the group, although it was helped by your addition of allowing limits to rsvp numbers.

Hmm. There are a couple of things I can do:

1) If you unsub from a group, your RSVPs are automatically removed
2) Give mods/owners the ability to change/delete RSVPs 

With 1, it could get tricky when I add the ability to pay for events. Do they get an automatic refund? Also, what happens with a waitlisted event if someone is removed from the group because they marked a message as spam, then return within the 3 day period.

So, maybe don't do 1, but do do 2?

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: make "Daily Summary" a no-response email #suggestion

 

That's weird. I think I might still have the message in my inbox. If so, I'll send it to you. 

Meanwhile, we came up with a solution to put the member on moderation and I will delete any messages that come in from her. But she also went on "special notices" so I won't be receiving any more of the summaries while she's on vacation. I can try to run a test with a different member, though.

Thanks.

J

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 8:35 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Someone in our group just responded to a "Daily Summary" email (actually, it was their automatic "out of the office" email). The message posted with subject "Daily Summary" and the (cryptic) message that they will be out of the office. I've deleted the message, but is it possible to make these emails non-respondable? I don't know the situation with digests, but possibly it would be a good idea for them, too.

You can't respond to summaries. They're just like digests in that regard, in that if you try to reply to them, the address that you reply to is digestnoreply@groups.io, which generates a response telling you to go to the website to reply. So I'm a bit baffled as to how you could have received a response, automated or otherwise, to a summary email. Next time you get one, please send me the headers.

Thanks,
Mark



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: calendar event rsvp

 

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Ro <recarlton@...> wrote:

Recently we had an event with limited rsvp.  One member left the group before the event.  We discovered that, unlike Meetup, there is no setting for the group owner to delete an RSVP.   Please consider adding this function Mark.  there is some muttering in the group, although it was helped by your addition of allowing limits to rsvp numbers.

Hmm. There are a couple of things I can do:

1) If you unsub from a group, your RSVPs are automatically removed
2) Give mods/owners the ability to change/delete RSVPs 

With 1, it could get tricky when I add the ability to pay for events. Do they get an automatic refund? Also, what happens with a waitlisted event if someone is removed from the group because they marked a message as spam, then return within the 3 day period.

So, maybe don't do 1, but do do 2?

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: make "Daily Summary" a no-response email #suggestion

 

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 8:35 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Someone in our group just responded to a "Daily Summary" email (actually, it was their automatic "out of the office" email). The message posted with subject "Daily Summary" and the (cryptic) message that they will be out of the office. I've deleted the message, but is it possible to make these emails non-respondable? I don't know the situation with digests, but possibly it would be a good idea for them, too.

You can't respond to summaries. They're just like digests in that regard, in that if you try to reply to them, the address that you reply to is digestnoreply@groups.io, which generates a response telling you to go to the website to reply. So I'm a bit baffled as to how you could have received a response, automated or otherwise, to a summary email. Next time you get one, please send me the headers.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated For members of groups with wikis: can you edit long wiki articles via the built-in editor without the article truncating?

 

Hi all,

 

For those subscribed to groups with wikis turned on: when editing long wiki articles (say, ones that spans multiple pages), is there a way to edit the article using the built-in editor without the content truncating? When I try to edit one such article (an article with several tables), the editor truncates the article content, and this is reflected in a subsequent revision (the resulting revision will be shown with truncated content).

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


moderated Re: Member Kicked off our io. group (and a request to Mark)

 

Great idea Catlady, Thank you. Having a message for memnbers is a great idea as long as they read it of course. Our lady that got herself kicked off accidently clicked spam when she was clearing her email inbox instad of the delete. So yes accidental spam listing does happen. We have a lot of "more mature" members on our list and many of them are not tech inclined at all. Sometimes the smallest mistake or action can send them into a real tizzy so gentle handling is always advisable
 
Tina 


To: beta@groups.io
Subject: Re: [beta] Member Kicked off our io. group (and a request to Mark)
On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 03:24 pm, J_Catlady wrote:
be careful to necessarily blame

oops, there was a "not" missing there - careful to NOT necessarily blame the member 
--
J

 

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated calendar event rsvp

Ro
 

Recently we had an event with limited rsvp.  One member left the group before the event.  We discovered that, unlike Meetup, there is no setting for the group owner to delete an RSVP.   Please consider adding this function Mark.  there is some muttering in the group, although it was helped by your addition of allowing limits to rsvp numbers.


Ro

with Silk gazing over the fence, and Sally, Handy, Feliz &  Police Kitty patrolling in the Great Beyond.



moderated Re: Member Kicked off our io. group (and a request to Mark)

 

Thanks! I think I will send out something based on that. I appreciate your posting it here.
J

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 19, 2017, at 4:18 PM, Donald Hellen <donhellen@roadrunner.com> wrote:

See below . . .

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 15:45:10 -0800, "J_Catlady"
<j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

Donald,
Would you be willing to post it here?
Consider this a first draft as I didn't feel like spending a lot of
time polishing it up like I might for a college paper in the past.

Donald

---------------------------------
The subject line reads:

IMPORTANT!!! Marking or leaving a message from our group in your SPAM
folder can unsubscribe you from the group.

a bit long but it is what it is for now.

------------------------------------------------

I sent this introduction to all members in the special notice:

This is a new message that will go out to all NEW members joining from
this point forward, but since the information might apply to you also,
please read it.

-------------------------------------------------

The following part is in the special notice and is the entire new
member message (in addition to our regular welcome message, which is
separate):

Recently, many ISPs and email services have implemented a new
"feature" that was supposed to reduce spam for their email users. When
you mark a message as spam in one of these email services, it sends
out an unsubscribe request to groups.io. Unfortunately, Groups.io and
other services like Yahoo Groups must comply with this arrangement or
risk having ALL of their messages blocked by that email provider.

What does this mean to you? If you mark a message from Groups.io as
spam or leave a message from Groups.io in your spam folder for too
long, your email provider will send an unsubscribe request to
Groups.io, which then forces Groups.io to unsubscribe you from that
group.

Groups.io has created a work-around that sends you a message with a
link to resubscribe to our group .

The problem is, if that message goes into your spam folder and you
ignore it, you remain unsubscribed from the group.

What I've done with my Roadrunner email is set the ISP's spam folder
to not hold spam but instead mark it as spam and send it to my inbox
where I can make the decision whether to delete it or not. That way
the spam trigger isn't set and I won't lose any messages that my ISP
through was possibly spam but wasn't. I unknowingly had this problem
for several years but this was before email providers implemented this
new automatic unsubscribe system. If you can check your email
provider's settings and see if you can have all spam sent to your
inbox (and possibly have it marked as spam to tell you it MIGHT be
spam), try that out sand see how it works for you.

When you let someone or something else make the decision FOR you about
whether a message is spam or not, you may be missing out on important
information you need, and you might also be allowing your email
service to unsubscribe you from various messaging services like Yahoo
Groups and Groups.io.

Thanks for reading this.

Donald



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Member Kicked off our io. group (and a request to Mark)

Donald Hellen
 

See below . . .

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 15:45:10 -0800, "J_Catlady"
<j.olivia.catlady@gmail.com> wrote:

Donald,
Would you be willing to post it here?
Consider this a first draft as I didn't feel like spending a lot of
time polishing it up like I might for a college paper in the past.

Donald

---------------------------------
The subject line reads:

IMPORTANT!!! Marking or leaving a message from our group in your SPAM
folder can unsubscribe you from the group.

a bit long but it is what it is for now.

------------------------------------------------

I sent this introduction to all members in the special notice:

This is a new message that will go out to all NEW members joining from
this point forward, but since the information might apply to you also,
please read it.

-------------------------------------------------

The following part is in the special notice and is the entire new
member message (in addition to our regular welcome message, which is
separate):

Recently, many ISPs and email services have implemented a new
"feature" that was supposed to reduce spam for their email users. When
you mark a message as spam in one of these email services, it sends
out an unsubscribe request to groups.io. Unfortunately, Groups.io and
other services like Yahoo Groups must comply with this arrangement or
risk having ALL of their messages blocked by that email provider.

What does this mean to you? If you mark a message from Groups.io as
spam or leave a message from Groups.io in your spam folder for too
long, your email provider will send an unsubscribe request to
Groups.io, which then forces Groups.io to unsubscribe you from that
group.

Groups.io has created a work-around that sends you a message with a
link to resubscribe to our group .

The problem is, if that message goes into your spam folder and you
ignore it, you remain unsubscribed from the group.

What I've done with my Roadrunner email is set the ISP's spam folder
to not hold spam but instead mark it as spam and send it to my inbox
where I can make the decision whether to delete it or not. That way
the spam trigger isn't set and I won't lose any messages that my ISP
through was possibly spam but wasn't. I unknowingly had this problem
for several years but this was before email providers implemented this
new automatic unsubscribe system. If you can check your email
provider's settings and see if you can have all spam sent to your
inbox (and possibly have it marked as spam to tell you it MIGHT be
spam), try that out sand see how it works for you.

When you let someone or something else make the decision FOR you about
whether a message is spam or not, you may be missing out on important
information you need, and you might also be allowing your email
service to unsubscribe you from various messaging services like Yahoo
Groups and Groups.io.

Thanks for reading this.

Donald


moderated Re: Member Kicked off our io. group (and a request to Mark)

 

Donald,
Would you be willing to post it here?
J

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Donald Hellen <donhellen@...> wrote:
For what it's worth, I just created a new message in our group to go
out to all new members about this. Of course, if it goes into their
spam folder, then it will be missed.

I also sent it out to all current members as a special notice.

I see a problem here in that people have not had to be responsible for
marking or unmarking messages as spam before, and there has been very
little information in the news about this. Email services have not
been helpful at all about this (for the most part).

With Roadrunner email, for instance, when you set up your email
program to work with it, the spam folder is on the Roadrunner email
server and you probably don't even know it's there. I eventually found
out about it and set it to send all spam to my inbox but mark it as
spam. That lets me figure out if it is really spam or not.

Since their spam filter is at best inconsistent and at worse flags
many false positives doing it this way keeps me from having to use
webmail access just to check a spam folder.

Donald

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 23:18:19 +0000, "Ro" <recarlton@...> wrote:

>Sent out a Special Notice on not marking messages as spam, after losing 2 members, and then lost 3 more!  Obviously, the special notice went to their spam, and so did the re-join message.  Frustrating.






--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

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