Date   

moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 08:05 am, J_Catlady wrote:
I just go through safari to gmail.

 Oops!   My bad!   Yes, Safari is the web browser and I know that, but had a brain fart.  You're definitely using Gmail's web interface if you check Gmail via Safari.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

Maria
 

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 08:17 am, J_Catlady wrote:
Did they ever offer a rationale for clipping the messages?

To annoy me :)

Seriously - not that I know of. But if you google "why does gmail clip messages?" you will see loads of complaints and no answers.



moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

 

Did they ever offer a rationale for clipping the messages?
J

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 8:10 AM, HR Tech via Groups.Io <m.conway11@...> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 07:58 am, Brian Vogel wrote:
So far as that goes it should be a, "Complain to Google," issue - as far as that will get you.

It won't get you far at all! People have been complaining about gmail's clipping messages since 2013 when they started and everyone assumed it was a bug rather than a choice on their part. Seems the same is true for their latest APP update. They don't want to show long messages. Loads of complaints on their product forums. Seems they don't care and expect those who create newsletters to adjust.

Diddo with apple/mac mail updates on IOS and desktop mail making the index links not work. They know, and they don't seem to care.

Maria



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

Maria
 

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 07:58 am, Brian Vogel wrote:
So far as that goes it should be a, "Complain to Google," issue - as far as that will get you.

It won't get you far at all! People have been complaining about gmail's clipping messages since 2013 when they started and everyone assumed it was a bug rather than a choice on their part. Seems the same is true for their latest APP update. They don't want to show long messages. Loads of complaints on their product forums. Seems they don't care and expect those who create newsletters to adjust.

Diddo with apple/mac mail updates on IOS and desktop mail making the index links not work. They know, and they don't seem to care.

Maria


moderated Re: New members not receiving notice

 

I've had it happen with gmail users, too. There is no pattern that I could detect. Our group now has an explicit warning on the home page to look for the message after applying for membership.

J

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:59 AM, Tami D <artfulmuze@...> wrote:
I have a Pending Member Questionnaire set up to go to folks who apply for membership but some people aren’t receiving it.
I joined my group with another email address in order to test that it was working and received it in seconds. 

The last person who didn’t receive the questionnaire was an AOL address. When I tried to send her the questionnaire personally, AOL blocked it because certain words were in the email. What those words were, they didn’t say.

I know this has been discussed recently but I'm thinking that this is only happening with certain email accounts and not randomly.
Does anyone remember which email providers  were used by those who hadn’t received their Pending Subscription Notice?
If we can figure that out then I can put something on our homepage asking them to join using an alternate email.

Thanks
Tami Davis



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

Maria
 

J, Brian

With gmail it's their interface ( regardless of browser used) that clips long messages and makes you open it up to a second page. A not so nice experience.

I've also found that it messes with the reply links when you end up having to open the digest to that second page.

With their GMAIL IOS APP as of november they not only clip, and don't scale, but also fail to provide the click here to "view entire message" so, if you don't have your gmail also set up on mail IOS native app for iphone, you basically only have access to the list of topics and then about a third of the digest and it looks small. It does this for all emails that are long - not just groups.io. Super annoying and for sure affects participation rates as you can imagine, if a user is on the GMAIL app and depends on digests for group participation, you have a discouraged user.

The only workaround is setting up a gmail inbox in a mail client like mac mail or IOS iphone mail - then the digest does not get clipped at all and all works lovely. But not everyone realizes that or wants the hassle.

I can say that in our groups people are mostly using gmail or yahoo email addresses. I think it's fair to structure any emails the system generates with those two in mind (browser and app versions) plus of course iphone IOS mail. I think the percentage of people who open (whether they read here or not) emails on mobile is nearly 60% vs 40% on desktop. Maybe they read them later on desktop... More info here.

Maria


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

 

I don't know. I don't use the "mail" program on the Mac. I just go through safari to gmail. So I think that's what you're saying. 

J

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:58 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

If you're using Safari you're in an e-mail client program.  This most likely answers the question, though not definitively until someone chimes in that uses the Gmail web interface, that Google is actually truncating the message, as I have never seen any e-mail client, ever, that does that sort of thing.

So far as that goes it should be a, "Complain to Google," issue - as far as that will get you.  I have never figured out what does and does not influence Google, as their missteps with regard to user interface issues (the new "contacts" format is a nightmare and people have been complaining ever since it was imposed a couple of years ago).

cIn the end, though Mark may come up with a "work around," this is ultimately not a Groups.io problem.  If the digests are made shorter there will almost certainly be complaints from high-traffic groups that, "You've doubled the number of digests I'm getting each day, and the reason I get digests is to minimize e-mail traffic!!"

It comes back, in my opinion, to people understanding that their choices (in this case, of e-mail provider) have consequences/side effects.  It doesn't seem to me that this is an issue that Mark can ultimately resolve nor should really try to resolve.  But I have no objection (not that it should matter if I did) if he does make the effort.  It is impossible to predict what may or may not change for the multitude of e-mail providers out there as far as message truncation goes.  I can imagine a number of high traffic groups where a much larger number of messages might be wanted in a single digest rather than 25, too.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated New members not receiving notice

Tami D <artfulmuze@...>
 

I have a Pending Member Questionnaire set up to go to folks who apply for membership but some people aren’t receiving it.
I joined my group with another email address in order to test that it was working and received it in seconds. 

The last person who didn’t receive the questionnaire was an AOL address. When I tried to send her the questionnaire personally, AOL blocked it because certain words were in the email. What those words were, they didn’t say.

I know this has been discussed recently but I'm thinking that this is only happening with certain email accounts and not randomly.
Does anyone remember which email providers  were used by those who hadn’t received their Pending Subscription Notice?
If we can figure that out then I can put something on our homepage asking them to join using an alternate email.

Thanks
Tami Davis


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

If you're using Safari you're in an e-mail client program.  This most likely answers the question, though not definitively until someone chimes in that uses the Gmail web interface, that Google is actually truncating the message, as I have never seen any e-mail client, ever, that does that sort of thing.

So far as that goes it should be a, "Complain to Google," issue - as far as that will get you.  I have never figured out what does and does not influence Google, as their missteps with regard to user interface issues (the new "contacts" format is a nightmare and people have been complaining ever since it was imposed a couple of years ago).

cIn the end, though Mark may come up with a "work around," this is ultimately not a Groups.io problem.  If the digests are made shorter there will almost certainly be complaints from high-traffic groups that, "You've doubled the number of digests I'm getting each day, and the reason I get digests is to minimize e-mail traffic!!"

It comes back, in my opinion, to people understanding that their choices (in this case, of e-mail provider) have consequences/side effects.  It doesn't seem to me that this is an issue that Mark can ultimately resolve nor should really try to resolve.  But I have no objection (not that it should matter if I did) if he does make the effort.  It is impossible to predict what may or may not change for the multitude of e-mail providers out there as far as message truncation goes.  I can imagine a number of high traffic groups where a much larger number of messages might be wanted in a single digest rather than 25, too.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

 

p.s. AFAIK they just send out these gigantic emails once a week, and my gmail clips them and makes me click on "view entire message" at the bottom to see the whole thing. I'm not sure whether that has the effect of logging me into their site or not, but it looks like not.

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:44 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Brian,

I'm not that kind of techie, so I have no idea. I'm using gmail on safari on a Mac, if that answers your question. I don't know what they do on their end. They send the message on a certain day of the week and it is terrible!!!

J

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

J, Is the Gmail problem in their web interface or are you using an e-mail client?

-- 

Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

 

Brian,

I'm not that kind of techie, so I have no idea. I'm using gmail on safari on a Mac, if that answers your question. I don't know what they do on their end. They send the message on a certain day of the week and it is terrible!!!

J

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

J, Is the Gmail problem in their web interface or are you using an e-mail client?

-- 

Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

J, Is the Gmail problem in their web interface or are you using an e-mail client?

-- 

Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

 

The same thing happens on gmail with another mailing list I'm on. You always have to scroll to the bottom of an already very long message (event though clipped) and click on "view complete message."

I do this automatically now with their digests before even beginning to read, because you can't get valid search results otherwise. It's really annoying.

--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

Tony Moody
 

Mark,
I send out two digests if the first one is too long, about two pages long. The second one goes out an hour later due to possible restriction by my ISP.  It is a text only, manually generated email service, twice per day. A different animal but the same problem when input is hectic. 

OK,
Tony



On 26 Jan 2017 at 21:45, Mark Fletcher wrote about :
Subject : [beta] Experimenting with digest si

Hi All,
<snip>
So, I'm thinking of experimenting with lowering the max number of messages in a digest. Maybe to 20, maybe something less. Thoughts?

Thanks,
Mark
  


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Mark,

          Is this something that could be tweakable by the Group Owner?   I imagine on some high-traffic groups that even 25 messages (and I think you cap at 25 if number 26 arrives you generate a digest - It's been a while since I received digests) is "too low."

          Not that I don't think that playing with this isn't something you might do, but I don't think you're ever going to get around limits imposed by products outside the purview of Groups.io no matter what you do.  I use Gmail, but not iOS, so I don't know about how the Gmail app works on that platform.  People are going to run into issues imposed not by Groups.io, but their e-mail providers, clients, and apps of choice that you could spend a lifetime trying to fix.  When it comes to Google in particular, what's one way this week may not be the same way next.  You could drive yourself insane trying to keep up with what others change.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

Maria
 

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 09:45 pm, Mark Fletcher wrote:
When that happens, you have to click a link to open the digest in a web page (if at all; the current Gmail IOS app doesn't even provide a link to expand a truncated digest). Truncated digests also break linking from the index to individual messages. It's a bad user experience.

And I think this is actually the #1 reason to make a change: the gmail app ( which they haven't fixed now since november), the broken index links and in some cases the fact that the reply links get messed up when you open the digest in a second page. It's not a good user experience. Great to get less in your inbox, but not worth it, if the experience isn't satisfactory when you do get that digest.


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

Maria
 

Yahoo caps them at about 13 because of the clipping issue (and index links stop working at around 12..?). Of course, then people complain that it's not really a "daily" digest as it's more frequent in busy groups... but if groups.io doesn't call it a daily digest, then it's not a misnomer.

Like Linda, I also think that not having it clipped may boost participation: a)it's not clipped so people don't have to do the extra work and b) it comes out more frequently which could help with the rhythm of posts and c) not as dense to get through. 

For those who complain of then having too many digests in one day ( on busy groups) maybe there could be the 25 digest option? In other words - could a group default be a shorter digest and then a member could override that to select a longer digest if they were ok with the clipping and preferred fewer/longer digests?

I also think for groups where people send loads of pictures on each post - shorter digests may be better.

I was liking the 25 message digests - but am now seeing reasons why shorter is better. What's the point of a long digest if people find it too much to read, and then the mail clients clip it anyway?

Maria


moderated Re: Experimenting with digest size?

Linda
 

Hi Mark,
I'd be fine with a dozen or even fewer messages in each digest; it might even help boost participation, esp. with the three-ring circus on tv likely to continue for at least four years.

Linda



Mark wrote:
I'm thinking of experimenting with lowering the max number of messages in a digest. Maybe to 20, maybe something less. Thoughts?


moderated Experimenting with digest size?

 

Hi All,

Currently we cap the number of messages in a digest at 25. When we hit that number, or at 10pm pacific time every night, we generate a digest. Same as Yahoo and I believe Google groups. I don't remember exactly how I came up with the 25 number when I first wrote ONElist back in 1997, but it certainly wasn't based on any research or anything, and that decision was made back when most messages were text only and we didn't have nice digests.

What we're seeing these days is that many full featured digests are getting truncated by mail clients for being too long. When that happens, you have to click a link to open the digest in a web page (if at all; the current Gmail IOS app doesn't even provide a link to expand a truncated digest). Truncated digests also break linking from the index to individual messages. It's a bad user experience.

So, I'm thinking of experimenting with lowering the max number of messages in a digest. Maybe to 20, maybe something less. Thoughts?

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Brief downtime this evening

 

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 5:40 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Thanks for the heads up. Take your time!!! Hope all goes well. :-)

Sure, you say take your time, but I'm guessing that's because you just like to look at the cat pictures on the maintenance page. :-)

Advanced warning, I'm going to need to upgrade the main database machine soon, probably in the next two weeks, which will require about 1.5 hours of downtime. I'll post separately when I have a date/time locked down for that. Onward and upwards.

Thanks,
Mark 

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