Date   

moderated Re: little idea about offlist messages

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Uh, please present anything even close as far as word overlap for either "Private" or "Offlist."

Spelling overlap is vanishingly small for non-trivial words across languages, particularly low frequency ones.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: little idea about offlist messages

toki
 

On 01/13/2017 09:30 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Seriously, you use "This is an offlist message" or "The following is a private message" as the Subject line?
I don't, but I've received emails with that as the subject line.

jonathon


moderated Re: little idea about offlist messages

toki
 

On 01/13/2017 09:22 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

If someone wants this extended to non-English equivalents the likelihood of any of those overlapping with an English word commonly used is vanishingly small.
It took the developers of the Afrikaans spelling dictionary more than 20
itinerations, before they managed to include three of the ten most
common words in Afrikaans. Had they not followed the myth that word
overlapping was vanishingly small, they would have caught it by the
third itineration.

I've forgotten the language where the sound for negation sounds like
"ja", whilst the sound for affirmation sounds like "no". The specific
words for "yes" and "no" are very different.

It is absolutely impossible to know how many potential languages might
be used over time

Initially, you'd start with a thousand languages.
At somewhere between 20,000,000 and 50,000,000 registered users, you
start adding one language for every 100,000 new registrations. Which
language to add, depends upon the geographical location of those users.
In time, it will recognize between 10,000 and 15,000 languages.
(Ethnologue only counts living languages. It does not include conlangs,
and dead languages, examples of which can be found in YahooGroups.)

jonathon


moderated Re: little idea about offlist messages

 

I would prefer a dialog to automatic rejection based on a crude criterion. :)
J

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 6:54 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

There is absolutely no way to implement anything that's trigger word based that's 100% foolproof unless it bars absolutely anything where it's seen, and that makes no functional sense at all.

At its very best, it's a traffic cop that tries to prevent mistakes, but will never stop every blessed one of them.

If one wants to implement it with message body scanning in addition to subject scanning, and allowing for a match anywhere, the behavior could be made very much like e-mail interfaces that scan for the words "attach" or "attachment" and ask a question, before actually sending, if an attachment is not actually on the message.  A dialog could pop up with a question along the lines of, "Is this message really intended for public reading on [insert group name here]?  The word [insert found trigger word here] is in your message." with "Yes, continue to send to group" or "No, this is a private message."  If the latter were chosen then the "Reply to Sender" replacement for "Reply to Group" button, etc., could be done just like it is now if you've intentionally pressed the "Private" button before composing a response.

I think that's overkill, but it's a kind of overkill that's been implemented, and successfully, for precisely the purpose I used as an example.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: little idea about offlist messages

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

There is absolutely no way to implement anything that's trigger word based that's 100% foolproof unless it bars absolutely anything where it's seen, and that makes no functional sense at all.

At its very best, it's a traffic cop that tries to prevent mistakes, but will never stop every blessed one of them.

If one wants to implement it with message body scanning in addition to subject scanning, and allowing for a match anywhere, the behavior could be made very much like e-mail interfaces that scan for the words "attach" or "attachment" and ask a question, before actually sending, if an attachment is not actually on the message.  A dialog could pop up with a question along the lines of, "Is this message really intended for public reading on [insert group name here]?  The word [insert found trigger word here] is in your message." with "Yes, continue to send to group" or "No, this is a private message."  If the latter were chosen then the "Reply to Sender" replacement for "Reply to Group" button, etc., could be done just like it is now if you've intentionally pressed the "Private" button before composing a response.

I think that's overkill, but it's a kind of overkill that's been implemented, and successfully, for precisely the purpose I used as an example.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: Clearly Identifying Different Groups #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Mark,

             That "breadcrumb bar" is out of my usual field of view the very moment I begin scrolling down the screen to check out what's come in on any group.   It's out of my sight while composing this message, and I show messages on the web interface in reverse chrono order, so your latest one is closest to the top of the screen, not the bottom. Hence the reason I think that it either needs to "float", probably along the left side of the screen since there's a lot of open real estate there once you get below the last item in a group's control links.

              Personally, I still think it would be great to be able to customize one's background wash color on a per-group basis.  I'd use that a lot more than a number of the other things that can be customized in the individual group profiles.  I actually don't care for floating display elements very much and that wouldn't be my first choice if I had my druthers.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: when topic is closed, remove "moderated" status #suggestion

 

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 06:38 pm, JohnF wrote:
Just in it was a sensitive topic that got closed, it should keep its moderation? It may be Groups.io does not distinguish between an auto-locked and manually-locked (or auto-moderated or manually moderated) thread in its internal logic, so the safe thing is to leave whatever status it was when it was locked.

How often does that really happen, though?

Exactly. If it was AUTO-moderated, there's nothing to indicate that it was a sensitive topic. And I see the problem about not distinguishing between auto and manually moderated. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Perhaps the system SHOULD distinguish. Failing that, I would have the system simply remove "moderated" when a topic is closed.  Moderators can go in and re-moderate sensitive topics when necessary. That way around seems to put less of a burden on moderators, and make the auto-moderate mechanism somewhat useful. I don't see it as very useful currently.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: little idea about offlist messages

 

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 06:34 pm, JohnF wrote:
This could definitely happen, with someone typing "Offlist I told Bill more about the project."

Yes, that would be an example of false positive. I was actually thinking about false negatives, where I mean to express that I'm sending it offlist but I DON'T start off with that word - instead I start with some sort of sentence like "Hi, John, this is an offlist message because I'm going to tell you my deepest darkest secrets. Don't tell another soul what I'm about to reveal!"

(Wait. You mean I sent this to the whole group???? ..... 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: when topic is closed, remove "moderated" status #suggestion

 

Just in it was a sensitive topic that got closed, it should keep its moderation? It may be Groups.io does not distinguish between an auto-locked and manually-locked (or auto-moderated or manually moderated) thread in its internal logic, so the safe thing is to leave whatever status it was when it was locked.

How often does that really happen, though?

JohnF


moderated Re: when topic is closed, remove "moderated" status #suggestion

 

I'm going to put this right here, in this thread: every time I've responded to a message here from within Messages view, the next time I go  in I'm taken back to Topics view. Why??? This behavior started about five days ago and is driving me insane.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: little idea about offlist messages

 

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 05:24 pm, J_Catlady wrote:
I agree with the idea but think it might be difficult to implement because
some people might use a sentence at the beginning rather than just a single
word.
This could definitely happen, with someone typing "Offlist I told Bill more about the project."

Mail gets into trouble when it starts relying on key words that can also be typed. If you start a plain test mail message with "From" followed by a space, the mailer has to put a ">" in front of the "From", because UNIX mail files used that as a separator between mail messages. If someone typed "From Wilma" on a new line of the message, it would mess up UNIX mail, so it's not allowed. (HTML mail has other options.)

JohnF


moderated Re: when topic is closed, remove "moderated" status #suggestion

 

Ok, you convinced me.:)

Your next task: explain to me why an auto-closed topic that was previously auto-moderated should stay moderated when reopened. 
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: when topic is closed, remove "moderated" status #suggestion

 

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 11:52 am, J_Catlady wrote:
To show that the situation is not completely logical: currently, I can set
auto-close to 20 days and auto-moderate to 30 days.
That would make sense if it's a temporary setting. For example, say things are getting out of hand, and you want to temporarily set auto-close to 5 days while leaving auto-moderate at 30 days. Then, after things calm down, you could set auto-close back to 45 days (or whatever it was), while leaving auto-moderate alone.

And I can also, by hand, set a closed topic to moderated. Do either of
those make any sense? Why would I want to moderate a closed topic? 
If you're just about to re-open it, and you don't want to risk even the slightest change someone might post between the time you re-open it and the time you add the moderation flag to it.

Yes, these are both kind of weird situations, but it doesn't hurt to allow settings even when they don't make sense, if you can change them later.

JohnF


moderated Re: little idea about offlist messages

 

Yes, I get now that it was a conjunction.

I agree with the idea but think it might be difficult to implement because some people might use a sentence at the beginning rather than just a single word.

Have a nice evening.:)
J

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 13, 2017, at 5:06 PM, ro-esp <ro-esp@dds.nl> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 10:13 am, J_Catlady wrote:


I would be strongly against this.
nice clear quoting there :-(

I currently add either "private" or "offlist" to the text of any private email, to make sure the reader knows that
it's offlist.
It's not about the reader. It's about preventing that messages that are not meant for the entire list/group do be sent to everyone

I'd previously lobbied for the system to add that text automatically, in addition to just in the title,
I have no idea what you're trying to say here

groetjes, Ronaldo



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: little idea about offlist messages

ro-esp
 

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 10:13 am, J_Catlady wrote:


I would be strongly against this.
nice clear quoting there :-(

I currently add either "private" or "offlist" to the text of any private email, to make sure the reader knows that
it's offlist.
It's not about the reader. It's about preventing that messages that are not meant for the entire list/group do be sent to everyone

I'd previously lobbied for the system to add that text automatically, in addition to just in the title,
I have no idea what you're trying to say here

groetjes, Ronaldo


moderated Re: Date format settings #suggestion

 

Göran,

Date format option settings to be able to set the date format like

YYYY/MM/DD
YYYY-MM-DD is an international standard ISO 8601:
https://xkcd.com/1179/

DD/MM/YYYY
Nope. On the discouraged list, along with MM/DD/YYYY as used in most of the US. ;-)

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum


moderated Re: Date format settings #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

It would seem (and I know it may not be in fact) that it would be possible to give a number of "Absolute" date display options on an individual's account preferences page under the "Time Display" option [which really should read Date-Time display option].  Right now the only two options are "Relative", e.g. 5 minutes ago, 3 days ago, or "Absolute," e.g. Jan 13, 2017, 5:33PM.  I'd imagine that the current single "Absolute" has to be controlled "under the hood" by a standard date-time formatting string that most application software or OS date-time functions use.  If that's the case, then expanding the range of "Absolute" style displays in a dropdown should be relatively easy and I'd think that anyone who uses a computer would recognize something like, YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM, versus, YYYY/MM/DD hh:mm.

What could also be used would be relative, as is, and if you picked Absolute then you would be expected to type in your date-time formatting string using a set of explanatory letter combinations shown below, such as HH for 12-hour clock hour versus 'hh' for 24-hour clock hour, etc.  There would be a default, of course, but it could be changed to suit the user perfectly.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: Date format settings #suggestion

 

Given that YYYY/MM/DD has been the ISO 8601 standard since 1988, I think that format makes a lot of sense to include. That format, including the associated time notation. allows a chronological list by simply using numeric order.
 
DD/MM/YYYY also has it's proponents in various countries. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601 for other various national standards.
 
Dano
 
> Suggestion
>
> Date format option settings to be able to set the date format like
>
> YYYY/MM/DD
>
> DD/MM/YYYY 
>
> Regards
>
> Göran


moderated Re: little idea about offlist messages

 

Oh, no, not as the subject line. I meant as the first line of the message. The subject line is already taken care of.
J

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 2:04 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Ok.:-)
J
p.s. Yes, seriously, I do!

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

J,

       Seriously, you use "This is an offlist message" or "The following is a private message" as the Subject line?

       The original proposal dealt only with subject line filtering, not message body filtering.  I would not support message body filtering because the words offlist or private can be used in public message bodies just like this one.  I wouldn't even support filtering for those if they were the subject line because "sliding checks" are not only much more complicated but also way more difficult to make a "fuzzy prediction" for.   If I were posting a discussion about offlist messages I would likely make the subject, "About Offlist Messages," which I definitely would never instantly interpret as having the intent of actually being an offlist message.

        I am speaking only about Subject line and only if the "trigger word" is the first word in the subject itself.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: little idea about offlist messages

 

Ok.:-)
J
p.s. Yes, seriously, I do!

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

J,

       Seriously, you use "This is an offlist message" or "The following is a private message" as the Subject line?

       The original proposal dealt only with subject line filtering, not message body filtering.  I would not support message body filtering because the words offlist or private can be used in public message bodies just like this one.  I wouldn't even support filtering for those if they were the subject line because "sliding checks" are not only much more complicated but also way more difficult to make a "fuzzy prediction" for.   If I were posting a discussion about offlist messages I would likely make the subject, "About Offlist Messages," which I definitely would never instantly interpret as having the intent of actually being an offlist message.

        I am speaking only about Subject line and only if the "trigger word" is the first word in the subject itself.
--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu

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