Date   

moderated Re: Message Number Missing in E-mail footer

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 12:28 pm, Nightowl >8# wrote:
I hope that explains it for you, if not, feel free to ask more questions, and thank you for being so respectful.

 "When I started my group for fighting. . ."

Perhaps we two are cosmically there [no, that context trimming doesn't matter, and leaving it ruins the joke].

We're the same age, within months of each other.  I got my BS in Computer Science in 1985, so I've been around as long as you and your husband have.

[The following is snark free, which I feel the need to declare.]  It fascinates me how some people absolutely cling to whatever they learned first, like it's a huge security blanket, even when "something better" to the rest of the world (or most of it, anyway) has come along while others are ready, at a moment's notice, to jettison "last week's" stuff for this week's only because this week's is newer, not necessarily better.

I consider myself to be the middle ground.  I do not, with the rarest of exceptions, tend to be an early adopter of anything.  Some of that is because I hate being someone's beta tester [and, let's admit it, a very large portion of released software is beta if the actual developers could control release dates.]  But, once I see something intriguing and, to me, useful that has had "enough time" [which varies, depending on the thing and its complexity] to have been shaken out, I'll dump everything I'm comfortable with to master something new even with an incredibly painful learning curve because I think it will be easier in the long run.  In this particular instance I'm personally in the, "I'd rather have my wisdom teeth extracted without anesthesia than use the method you do for following any online groups."

Chacun à son goût

I never expected so comprehensive, nor entertaining, an answer and quite enjoyed it.

--
Brian

I have made mistakes, but have never made the mistake of claiming I never made one.   

          ~  James G. Bennet


moderated Re: Font Size variation in body of posts / digests - thoughts? #suggestion

Anita L
 

 
Mark if you make it optional that is ok. If you make it where this will happen I will have to leave the group. My members love to do this and the graphics. If this is going to change please let me know and we will have to go back to yahoo.
 
I already have issues with the photos that are on the home page and duplicates. I am trying for your place to work with my group. If these things make it hard for my members I have to rethink things. I really love all you are doing but I want each member to choose what font they want and graphics.
 
Anita
 
 
8a. 
Re: Font Size variation in body of posts / digests - thoughts? #wishlist #suggestion
From: Mark Fletcher
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2017 13:15:21 EST

Hi All,

Personally, I agree with Maria. I am distracted when messages contain different font sizes or colors. That's one of the reasons I thought MySpace was horrible, and why I agree with many of the design decisions that Facebook made. If you look at some of the popular forums out there, like Discourse and Reddit, they don't permit different font types, sizes and colors.

This has been in the back of my mind for awhile. I'd like to add an optional, but defaulted to on, feature to strip different font sizes, types and colors from messages. Perhaps I need to make this more of a priority.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: Message Number Missing in E-mail footer

 

Brenda,

I have to say that reading that story was infinitely more enjoyable on my lunch break than the newspaper. :-) (I mean that in a good way, not a snarky one!!!)
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Signatures for Web Posting suddenly not working on multiple groups

 

Hi All,

The signature bugs should be fixed now. And the infinite scroll issue in the Topic view has also been fixed.

Here to fix bugs and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum.

Mark

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 3:47 PM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
Thanks. Hoping Mark sees it here, but I will send a bug report to support just in case.I've seen it for at least a week now, but only notice it when I'm looking through a longish thread.
J

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 3:45 PM, HR Tech via Groups.Io <m.conway11=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Right. I think it's a bug. If you switch to viewing 100 messages - you will see the whole thread.

It's an infinite scroll issue that I don't recall seeing before.

I noticed same thing today.

Maria



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



moderated Re: Message Number Missing in E-mail footer

Nightowl >8#
 

Brian Vogel wrote:>>I preface the following with the sincere statement that it is not intended as provocative or nasty or saying "you shouldn't do this", but out of genuine curiosity:  Why do you do this?<<

Okay, I'll try and explain it.

My first introduction to the "Internet" was a local dial up BBS, (Electronic Bulletin Board) called Affinity, in 1996. (For reference, I'm 55 years old).

It had forums, which to me, were often confusing, but it also had a section that served as sort of the Lobby, called BS Land, where everyone posted in order as a sort of conversation. I handled that a lot better than trying to keep up in all the individual forums, so I primarily stayed in that one.

It was there that I met my husband to be, John. The members of the BBS would meet locally, at a safe location and that's how I met him. We started dating that same year, and got married in 1999. The reason that matters, is because he was a computer programmer, and understood computer and internet and etc. way more than I did. So when Affinity was finally struggling to stay afloat, (we all paid a fee to be there, but it wasn't enough), and couldn't afford the multiple phone lines it needed, Affinity moved to Yahoo Clubs in 2001 and John helped me learn that.

Yahoo had only one way of reading at the time, (if I recall correctly), and that was all in one long stream of messages, which were numbered in order. As we, Affinity, were a social group, it was mostly conversational and in order. So we retained our "in order" method, like the whole club had just become BS land.

We even did "play acting" of scenarios which of course, had to be in order to make any sense. Not quite RPG, but just text descriptions. That was my first Yahoo Club I was in. When I created my own spin-off group, Port Affinity, it became a sort of hangout type group where I posted about what was going on, and my friends replied and we all had a sort of "conversation." It became Yahoo groups, and then my group was graduated to Hollow Tree, both in Yahoo and in here.

When I started my group for fighting Yahoo in 2004, once again, it was basically a chronological process, where were we on the issue, what had people done, and pretty much, that was in order too. Yahoo had by this point made threading possible, or maybe just better, (Shal might know that), but I still read in order, as did many others.

I was the moderator, so I felt I had to read every message. What I would do is read all the new messages, (which Y indicated for me by color), and write numbers down on a notepad to reply to later. Then I would go in and reply when I had time. (I like pen and paper still, especially pretty colored pens & cool notepads).

I tried a couple times to follow a thread in Yahoo and it made me nuts. So when NEO came along in 2014 it "broke" groups so badly, to where I had to read them in e-mail, (something I had never done). So in order to read them in order, I had to start writing the last number I read down as well, so I knew where to start again in mail. I couldn't read on the interface as it caused me bad visual and eye issues (flashing hover buttons, etc.) When they moved the number around, Shal taught me to find it in the full headers.

So when I came here, I considered Beta to be a chronological record of how we started, what we achieved, and etc. And since that is what I've always been accustomed to doing, continued to read in chronological order. The few times I've tried to read a thread in here, I've gotten all stressed and confused.

So to make it easier, since groups.io doesn't mark messages read yet, John helped me create folders in Thunderbird where I could move all new messages as they came in, called Beta to read, GMF to read, etc. Then I would mark them read and manually put them in that folder. When I got ready to catch up, I'd look at the first message, note the number and type it in to Beta or GMF and start reading.

As a result of my recent conversation on here with Jennifer, John made it even better. Now my e-mail goes straight into those folders when I check my mail client, and I don't have to sort Beta from GMF, etc. Plus we put Mark's #changelog posts in another one.

But when that Message number went away in HTML messages, that made it harder for the last couple of days. I've had to look at messages in the folders, and find one with a message number, and either count backwards or forwards to find the one I left off at. And I am not only bad at math, I hate it. ;)

So my guess is that I read in order based on regular habit since 1996, and because I view all groups as a message archive of historical significance. I have saved every single group message either in word or elsewhere, since I have been in groups. I even have print outs of Affinity on dot matrix paper.

I hope that explains it for you, if not, feel free to ask more questions, and thank you for being so respectful.

Brenda


It is becoming rarer and rarer for absolute message number to retain primacy
anywhere as far as user interfaces go.  Some have eliminated it entirely.
 Topic view, with the individual messages ordered either "newest to oldest"
or "oldest to newest", depending on one's needs/preferences, is generally a
really fast way of zeroing in on where to pick up on any conversation unless
you left off a very long time ago.

Even if this feature comes back, and I suspect it will here, anyway, your
chosen method is very likely "to break" if you ever have to move elsewhere, or
even potentially in the future here.  Topic view takes so much of the load
off cognitively when it comes to dealing with ongoing conversations.

I am genuinely trying to understand how completely unthreaded message view,
even with absolute message numbers available for reference, could increase
ease and speed over a threaded/topic view.  There's got to be something I'm
missing, but I have no idea what that is.

Brian


moderated Re: Message Number Missing in E-mail footer

 

The only reason I personally like to see message #'s somewhere (it doesn't have to be obtrusive or easy to access) is so that I can tell whether messages have been deleted.

J

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 11:24 am, Nightowl >8# wrote:
I never read by thread or topic, only chronologically by number, which was a deal breaker in trying to find a replacement group site when Yahoo broke.

I preface the following with the sincere statement that it is not intended as provocative or nasty or saying "you shouldn't do this", but out of genuine curiosity:  Why do you do this?

It is becoming rarer and rarer for absolute message number to retain primacy anywhere as far as user interfaces go.  Some have eliminated it entirely.  Topic view, with the individual messages ordered either "newest to oldest" or "oldest to newest", depending on one's needs/preferences, is generally a really fast way of zeroing in on where to pick up on any conversation unless you left off a very long time ago.

Even if this feature comes back, and I suspect it will here, anyway, your chosen method is very likely "to break" if you ever have to move elsewhere, or even potentially in the future here.  Topic view takes so much of the load off cognitively when it comes to dealing with ongoing conversations.

I am genuinely trying to understand how completely unthreaded message view, even with absolute message numbers available for reference, could increase ease and speed over a threaded/topic view.  There's got to be something I'm missing, but I have no idea what that is.

Brian



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: How on earth does Groups.io thread a topic?

 

Well, that is weird. I'll hold off sending you the info on the two members whose emails also used to split threads. One of them stopped doing it a couple of days ago, inexplicably, which is why I wondered.

Hopefully the new way will solve the problem.

J

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 11:31 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Did you do this 1-2 days ago? 

No ma'am, it went live at 11:05am pacific time this morning. I made no changes to the site over the weekend.

Mark 



--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Re: Message Number Missing in E-mail footer

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 11:24 am, Nightowl >8# wrote:
I never read by thread or topic, only chronologically by number, which was a deal breaker in trying to find a replacement group site when Yahoo broke.

I preface the following with the sincere statement that it is not intended as provocative or nasty or saying "you shouldn't do this", but out of genuine curiosity:  Why do you do this?

It is becoming rarer and rarer for absolute message number to retain primacy anywhere as far as user interfaces go.  Some have eliminated it entirely.  Topic view, with the individual messages ordered either "newest to oldest" or "oldest to newest", depending on one's needs/preferences, is generally a really fast way of zeroing in on where to pick up on any conversation unless you left off a very long time ago.

Even if this feature comes back, and I suspect it will here, anyway, your chosen method is very likely "to break" if you ever have to move elsewhere, or even potentially in the future here.  Topic view takes so much of the load off cognitively when it comes to dealing with ongoing conversations.

I am genuinely trying to understand how completely unthreaded message view, even with absolute message numbers available for reference, could increase ease and speed over a threaded/topic view.  There's got to be something I'm missing, but I have no idea what that is.

Brian


moderated Re: How on earth does Groups.io thread a topic?

 

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 11:31 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Did you do this 1-2 days ago? 

No ma'am, it went live at 11:05am pacific time this morning. I made no changes to the site over the weekend.

Mark 


moderated Re: How on earth does Groups.io thread a topic?

 

Mark,

Did you do this 1-2 days ago? 
Thanks.

J

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Mark Fletcher <markf@corp.groups.io> wrote:
Hi All,

I've just changed the threading algorithm. Here it is:

If a message has threading information, use that. (same as before)
If a message does not have threading information:
- If it's a web post, assume it's the start of a new thread
- If the subject starts with Re:, look for a matching subject within the last 30 days
- If the subject does not start with Re:, look for a matching subject within the last 2 days

Please let me know if it helps.

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Suddenly, today, the member's posts are threading correctly, even without "Re:"

The message activity log shows that he (and others) "Sent message Lysine" (instead of "Sent message Re: Lysine"). Yesterday, such posts were creating their own threads instead of threading under "Lysine." Today they are threading correctly.

I will try to get a better grip on this today and summarize it at the end of the day for Mark via support (and cc Shal). I'll also include whatever message headers seem relevant.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu




--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu


moderated Reminder: Responding to old threads

 

Hi All,

NOTE: This is *not* directed at any one person. In the last week, there have been replies to old threads by *multiple* people, that I have not approved.

I need to guard my time, as there are a million things I want to accomplish with Groups.io and only one of me, so by necessity and by a desire to go at a fast clip, beta@ is set to moderate threads more than 14 days old. This is to keep things moving along and to not have discussions drag on. If a thread is moderated, I ask that you think extra hard about whether your comment will further the discussion.

Thanks,
Mark


moderated Re: How on earth does Groups.io thread a topic?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Mark,

         This will almost certainly help, but might I ask whether the subject matching is "perfectly exact" or fuzzy?  There are many instances on some of the groups I frequent where someone will accidentally have knocked off, say the "R" on "Re:", or something similar but where the rest of the subject is still completely intact.  I can't think of a single instance where this should not result in the message being threaded into an existing active subject (and where I know that the message does not have threading information before you'd even get this far into the algorithm).

         This brings up a related, interesting, and almost certain to be controversial topic:  I have seen e-mail clients that thread when threading information is available in the message header regardless of whether or not someone has changed the subject when the message originates via use of "reply" which causes the threading information to be included.  The only way one escapes a conversation/thread to form a new thread via e-mail is by creating a new message, using a new subject, and employing "cut and paste" if desired to transfer any context from a thread that one may be launching a spin-off from.   Has that ever been considered here, or could it be?

         Most of the thread splitting I'm observing and fixing is the direct result of user ignorance of threading conventions and netiquette.  They treat the subject as an extension of the message body, and will prepend or append something to it that's meant as an embellishment, but with no idea that this would trigger an entirely new thread.  I believe that some of this also arises because some e-mail clients thread strictly on header information when that's available and ignore the subject altogether, so they're accustomed to seeing mixed subjects under one conversation thread.

          There could be an argument made that this would be the best way for Groups.io to thread based on my limited experiences on the groups I frequent.  Others, of course, may differ, but they also may strongly agree.  I'm really curious about what other people are experiencing with regard to users changing subjects willy-nilly with "cute bits" when the actual message they're sending is clearly just the next in the line for an existing conversation/topic/thread.

Brian


moderated Re: Message Number Missing in E-mail footer

Nightowl >8#
 

Shal Farley wrote:>>That's the topic number, not the message number. I don't know why but topics are counted site-wide, not per group.<<

Hopefully Mark will fix it, as it's about the only way I know where I left off in here. I never read by thread or topic, only chronologically by number, which was a deal breaker in trying to find a replacement group site when Yahoo broke.

Crossing my fingers it's going to be fixed.

Brenda


moderated Re: How on earth does Groups.io thread a topic?

 

Hi All,

I've just changed the threading algorithm. Here it is:

If a message has threading information, use that. (same as before)
If a message does not have threading information:
- If it's a web post, assume it's the start of a new thread
- If the subject starts with Re:, look for a matching subject within the last 30 days
- If the subject does not start with Re:, look for a matching subject within the last 2 days

Please let me know if it helps.

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

Suddenly, today, the member's posts are threading correctly, even without "Re:"

The message activity log shows that he (and others) "Sent message Lysine" (instead of "Sent message Re: Lysine"). Yesterday, such posts were creating their own threads instead of threading under "Lysine." Today they are threading correctly.

I will try to get a better grip on this today and summarize it at the end of the day for Mark via support (and cc Shal). I'll also include whatever message headers seem relevant.
--
J

Messages are the sole opinion of the author. Especially the fishy ones.

I wish I could shut up, but I can't, and I won't. - Desmond Tutu



moderated Re: Font Size variation in body of posts / digests - thoughts? #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

There should have been a "tend" before that "to be much easier to read."



moderated Re: Font Size variation in body of posts / digests - thoughts? #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Mark,

           If you do decide to go this route as far as the presentation side of things goes, and I'd fully support that, would you please consider using a serifed font like Times New Roman or similar for the "convert to" font?

           There is actually a lot of formal research out there on reading that clearly indicates that most readers find serifed fonts (and "normally serifed," not some of the extreme exercises in design that exist) to be much easier to read than non-serifed fonts.  As you can see, Times New Roman, in 14-point, is slightly smaller than Helvetica is in the same point size, so you'd have to trial both the font chosen and the point size to arrive at something that you consider suitable.  I would be happy to make recommendations if those are welcome for candidate fonts.

Brian


moderated Re: Getting rid of full page refresh after choosing "Start Merge" #suggestion

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Mark,

           I am adopting Zen for the moment, and have been.  This will likely be a low priority fix even if it's doable, but I'd still strongly suggest you put it on your list if it is simply because there exist a massive number of existing thread splits in groups that have been around a while that many other than myself feel almost duty bound to correct for the historical record and ease of searching.   Please don't make us have to "become perpetually additionally Zen about it" unless it really is a herculean task for you (in which case, I think we all understand priorities must be set).

Brian


moderated Re: Getting rid of full page refresh after choosing "Start Merge" #suggestion

 

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

If there is a way to stop the full page refresh after the "Start Merge" control is chosen, and to make sure that focus remains on or very close to the "merged into" thread after the "Merge into" step is taken it would make archive tidying a much easier process.

If there's not, then definitely let me know as I'll slowly transition myself into my Zen "that's the way it works; it's part of the charm" state and learn to deal.

Without thinking too hard about it, it's probably doable, but not without a lot of work. So I'd probably recommend Zen, at least for the short term. And hope that the thread fixes we're talking about reduce the need to merge.

Thanks,
Mark 


moderated Re: Font Size variation in body of posts / digests - thoughts? #suggestion

 

Hi All,

Personally, I agree with Maria. I am distracted when messages contain different font sizes or colors. That's one of the reasons I thought MySpace was horrible, and why I agree with many of the design decisions that Facebook made. If you look at some of the popular forums out there, like Discourse and Reddit, they don't permit different font types, sizes and colors.

This has been in the back of my mind for awhile. I'd like to add an optional, but defaulted to on, feature to strip different font sizes, types and colors from messages. Perhaps I need to make this more of a priority.

Thanks,
Mark

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:
Maria,

> I'd be curious to know how forums that use discourse do it (like the
> feverbee community). Their web interface is all the same font size
> and their mailing list summaries too. It's HTML though not plain
> text. Graphics, emojis etc all visually represented. I think at
> least...

A forum might have limited composition tools, and might or might not represent the messages in HTML internally (though they must be converted to HTML for display in a browser or via email).

Groups tend to be fundamentally different in that posting by email is common - and the email user interfaces usually give the users fairly broad (if not complete) control of the sent HTML.

I could see where a group that posts entirely (or primarily) on the Groups.io interface might want an selection in between plain text and general HTML - one that removes the font, size and color choices but still allows text styles (italic, bold) and other elements.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum





moderated Re: Message Number Missing in E-mail footer

 

Maggie,

I hovered over the link in an email message and the URL with #4061331
shows up. I know that we don't have that many messages ...
That's the topic number, not the message number. I don't know why but topics are counted site-wide, not per group.

Shal
https://groups.io/g/Group_Help
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum

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