locked Re: Suggestion for files settings


I'm sure the scheduled messages have been discussed, but I don't think an attachment was mentioned. There are currently options for Welcome, Pending, Goodbye, and Banned. If it were me, it would contain a link to the file on the group, especially if it's very large. I have several members still on dialup, so I try to minimize message size. (side note: Has anyone else tried to access NEO on dialup? ;>)


locked Suggestion for files settings


I don't know if this has been mentioned by anyone yet, but it would be a useful feature for my groups.

When uploading files, I'd like to have the ability to have that file be sent to to the group members automatically periodically. For example, once a week, once a month, once a year, or on a certain date. 

I'd also like an option to send it to them when they join the group for something other than the generic welcome message. I have several different files that go out to new members.


locked Re: Wiki



Mark fixed this a couple of weeks ago.


On Jan 24 15, at 6:27 PM, dalemonator@... wrote:

Ooops!  I'm dumb.  Turns out the wiki totally accepts drag and drop images.  Works very nicely, and they can be resized easily.   It didn't when I first tried it, but works fine when I tried it on a different computer.  Thanks Mark!

locked Re: Wiki


Ooops!  I'm dumb.  Turns out the wiki totally accepts drag and drop images.  Works very nicely, and they can be resized easily.   It didn't when I first tried it, but works fine when I tried it on a different computer.  Thanks Mark!

locked Re: Group transfers feedback so far


"(this reminds me of a future feature I'd like to add, something that helps people create summaries of threads)"

Missed this before, but it sounds very interesting.  Seems like it would be quite useful to some of the type sof groups I have been in.

locked Re: accessing


Hi John,

Thank you for commenting.  I am more familiar with the Mac than I am with the PC, although, I can handle Windows XP, to a certain extent.  I will pass along your suggestion. 

If there are any users who use the Google Chrome browser with Window 8.1, I hope you will also pass along any helpful tips.


locked Re: cover photo


Thanks for that explanation, Shal. I have no knowledge of how many pixels there
are across the screen of a smart phone or tablet, and assumed it must be fairly
large to be useable. From what you say, it seems that's not the case. (I don't
have either.)

I must admit I've always taken it for granted that anyone can easily resize or
crop an image in readily available free image processing software, and that
that would be even more likely to be the case for a group owner than for the
average user, but no doubt, as you say, there are some who can't.

Why anyone should be bothered by variable blank space beside an image I totally
fail to understand, but having the image big enough to be visible on a big
screen and small enough to go on the screen without significant sideways
scrolling on a small one certainly makes sense.


On 23 Jan 2015 at 12:03, Shal Farley wrote:


> I don't understand why there's any need for width matching or any
> other processing of cover photos.

I don't speak for Mark, but is usually done because every member's
window might be a different width, and modern design sensibilities abhor
having variable blank space around a fixed size image. And a fixed size
image is inevitably a screen hog on one's mobile device but a postage
stamp on another's large-screen monitor.

> Why not just let people upload images as they like, and display them
> as sent, possibly with an option to have them aligned left, centre or
> right (with centre as the default). Obviously some people will need
> guidance as to what size is reasonable in term of pixels so they show
> sensibly on different screen widths, ...

Those are additional complications. It isn't "simple and easy to use" if
you have to tell the user to pre-process the image into a certain pixel
size. Many users aren't proficient with any image editing tools.

What might be nice is an uploader that allows the user to upload any
image and see a "live" preview that allows the user to zoom and pan the
image within a rectangle representing the cover image display. In other
words, provide a simple size and crop tool. Maybe it needs both a "max"
and a "min" rectangle: always crop down to the max, but never crop
smaller than the min. Then users with a logo or other specific art can
use the min rectangle to ensure that the important part of the image shows.

What I suggested was a lot simpler (for Mark, but maybe not for the
user): a simple checkbox that's useful for users that have a logo or
otherwise fully prepared image, but not too helpful for a user with a
photo of which they'd like to use only a portion.

And note that none of this required the user to think about pixel sizes:
the pixels would be resampled automatically as needed to fit the
selected portion of the image into the display window.

-- Shal
-- - my personal web site covering many subjects - My thoughts on freedom - political snippets, especially economic policy - misc. snippets, some political, some not
Forget Google! I search with which doesn't spy on you

locked Re: Wiki


I think a dedicated database section is best as well.  In addition to it's popularity and familiarity, the tools that can be leveraged in a database-exclusive section would not be restricted by any wiki-related considerations, which would make both features more flexible.  I personally don't need sortable tables in a wiki, though it's a fun idea.  If I needed that level of power in relation to a group wiki, then inserting a link on the wiki page to the relevant group database page would be just fine. Since links can already be set to open in new windows, no back and forth navigation is required of the user. Easy enough.

Another thought is that while "wiki" conveys a clear idea of the concept you are aiming for, it also carries certain expectations with it, such as a certain style of edit history, markups, etc. It may also carry stigma for users who wouldn't know how to code one, expecting more difficulty than WYSIWYG. I would prefer to see the WYSIWYG interface retained if possible, as it is much easier to work with.  Perhaps what you are really making with this section is not a true "wiki", and should thus have a different name?  Its "wiki-esque", but regular wiki admins may be disappointed that the regular markup features aren't there. I think for example that Google Groups calls their version "pages", if I recall correctly.  Similar functions to a wiki, but all wysiwyg.  

It's a new animal, you can give it a new cage. :)

I would also agree the wiki would work fine as a "links" area, and offers a more versatile way to display *some* data in tables, but ultimately, from what you describe, it sounds like it's going to create undesirable work and possibly restrictions on both features, and so the better power lies in separation. At least for now.  

As for my own usage needs, I am just waiting to be able to insert pictures in the wiki section.  That will be all the toy I need for some time.

Thanks for all your thoughtful work on this.

locked Re: Wiki


Besides having a way to revert to a previous version of a Wiki page, I feel that having changes be moderated might prevent some problems. Many folks aren't familiar with how a wiki works, including me, and could make a mess or delete a lot of work accidentally. Being able to compare the pending revision to the existing page would be important.

I'd much rather have Databases be a separate area. I don't think I'd have any trouble using wiki pages to set up links.


locked Re: Easy yahoo group transfer instructions


6a. Easy yahoo group transfer instructions
From: Mark Fletcher <>
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 13:58:43 PST


I've just put up a draft of the instructions for how the easy Yahoo Groups
transfer will go:

Please let me know what you think. Are the instructions clear? Am I missing
"You have been subscribed to the new group using your Yahoo account settings"

They are not "Yahoo-account settings". They are..well.. message delivery preferences like you (=user) used them in the yahoogroup.

The rest looks pretty solid to me

groetjes, Ronaldo


locked Re: Group transfers feedback so far


On a somewhat related item, YG has/had a setting to disallow invitations. I think this could be useful at times. The invitation and add functions should be separate options.


locked Re: Beta Digest


3a. RE: [beta] Replying to messages

Mark, will replying in the reply box allow that reply to show at the top
of the message or do you at least have an option?
As much as I hate that, I don't think it can be banned without pissing off a load of people who prefer it that way

From: CatWoman <>
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 08:01:53 PST

On 1/22/2015 10:39 PM, J. Faulkner wrote:
It allows me to reply at the top so when someone reads my reply, they
see it first and don?t have to hunt for it further down in the message.
If you are talking about a message - and "top posting" - I disagree.

I know that is the "new way" - most mail clients have the default as
top posting, but my problem with that is that in order to find out
what the person is replying to - I have to go search the message.

If you put just the specific thing you are responding to on top,
then you read that first, and then the response, as you see here.

It's a more natural way to read than response first.
Yes, and that's why I request an (optional!!) autotrim-feature like some googlegroups have. It simply deletes everything under the last unindented line, before the message is sent. Ideally (....) the cursor would be positioned at the start of the first written line UNDER the " at date and time, userxy@domain.pq sent:"

From: Mark Fletcher <>
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 10:04:20 PST
Reply directly to the sender
Obviously, having a button to reply to sender and another one to reply-to-list should be the default-setting.

When clicking on reply, possibly scroll up slightly to expose the reply box.
Sounds fancy, not urgent

groetjes, Ronaldo


locked Re: POLL: Change Archives to Messages?



Having a poll-feature would be nice too

locked Re: Moderation issues & is it a bug? #bug


On 24 January 2015 at 02:20, Cacky B <cackyb@...> wrote:
I had the same problem.  Click on the member's name or the email address.

On 1/23/2015 5:47 PM, Knytt Wytch wrote:
Mark,I may be daft but I can't see how to make a member a moderator

On 23 January 2015 at 23:46, Mark Fletcher <> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Feathered Leader <featheredleader@...> wrote:

Last night I used the new button for approve post and unmoderate member in MMSanctuary. However, when I went to the member's details, they were still on moderation and I had to manually unmoderate the member.

Is this a bug or was it just not working yet?

 It's definitely working. I think I see the instance where you tried to use it. For some reason it didn't think the subscriber was on modified status. I've added more logging and will track it..

Also, is it possible to separate the two moderator privileges "Modify Group Settings" & "Delete Group?"

Added to the todo list.


This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

locked Re: Cover photo


Hi Mark,
I'd prefer the image centered over the text below it.

I think Message History is knocking the page out of whack. Can you put the cells closer together so the width is the same as the text above?

Since "It doesn't rely on a specific image size", you'll want to change the upload instructions on this page.


locked Re: [owlperch] To Duane, Matthew, Shal & Tyger

Nightowl >8#

Shal wrote:>>The weird thing is that Brenda claims that her reply to me was made through owlperch, yet posted to beta. There's absolutely no mention of beta, nor ID of any beta messages, in the header fields of my cross-posted reply. That's too weird, I have to assume that Brenda was mistaken, and she actually replied in the Beta group, but thought it was owlperch because the subject tag said [owlperch].<<

That was the weirdest part. One minute I was replying to Message #42 I think it was, and I clearly saw message #42 where I was replying, and then when I sent it, it jumped me to the Beta group. When I went to hit next, the messages were in the 1080's or so, and I KNEW that was NOT right, cause Owlperch didn't have that many messages. If I was in the Beta tab, why would I see Message #42?

Had that happen once in NEO, shifted me straight out of one group into another, but have no idea why it happened here.

And John checked my headers, and my message appeared to be sent from Owlperch.

Weirder and weirder. I'll keep an eye on it, and try not to let it happen again.


locked Re: [owlperch] To Duane, Matthew, Shal & Tyger



So, if we get an email, with a message-id in the references list that
we've never seen before, we think we've gotten an out of order reply,
and that we should expect to see the original message at some point.
Wouldn't this be an ordinary result with a cross-posted reply? Cross-posting ought to be more commonly forwarded messages than replies, but _users do the darndest things_ (to paraphrase Art Linkletter). I've often bcc'd a group reply to a friend, but probably not too often to another group or list.

We put a 'placeholder' message in the database that corresponds to this
message we haven't seen before. It's empty, and it doesn't show up in
archives, but it does have a message number. When we see the original
message, we replace the placeholder with the original, and we're good.
Why? Just to prevent the rare case of a message number being out of order in the thread? Or are the threads actually sorted by message number and its the message that would be presented out of order?

What happened in this case is that Shal replied to an email in a
different group. Therefore, his message had in the references a
message-id that the group owlperch had never seen.
Other way around. The reply was to a message in owlperch. But the reply got cross-posted somehow into beta. It is beta which would never have seen the ID in that reply's References (and In-Reply-To).

The weird thing is that Brenda claims that her reply to me was made through owlperch, yet posted to beta. There's absolutely no mention of beta, nor ID of any beta messages, in the header fields of my cross-posted reply. That's too weird, I have to assume that Brenda was mistaken, and she actually replied in the Beta group, but thought it was owlperch because the subject tag said [owlperch].

-- Shal

locked Re: POLL: Change Archives to Messages?

Nightowl >8#

Interesting information. And in many ways I agree. :)

However, the people we are trying to bring over here will be completely confused by tje term archive. Add that to the fact that every thing else says message number, message so and so, this message or that one, and well, messages is still the best fit.


locked Re: [owlperch] To Duane, Matthew, Shal & Tyger



I looked through the logs. At 12:46am pacific time, we received an
inbound smtp connection from RoadRunner. In the one connection, both
emails were sent, one after the other. The beta message was sent first,
owlperch was second.
Interesting. Looking at the View Source in both groups, the header fields have byte-identical content, which makes sense I guess given that they came in on the same connection. Identical ID means that Roadrunner thought they were the same message, which isn't a surprise (that would still be true if I had done something like a BCC).

But the order of the fields is radically different, which is weird.

Were there any other messages in that connection? My prior message to beta, #1096, went out in the same batch from Eudora to Roadrunner, and its timestamp is only one second earlier in your server's Received from Roadrunner, strongly implying that it might have been in the same connection.

Is it possible there was a glitch during the connection between Roadrunner and your server, causing Roadrunner to think the first attempt at the owlperch delivery failed, but your server accepted it and somehow mistakenly applied the destination address of the prior message in the connection?

Nightmare scenario I'm sure. This makes me all the more suspicious of those "duplicate message" bounces I received. I think those may represent three more instances of the same glitch, but those were caught because the same group was the destination.

-- Shal

locked Re: POLL: Change Archives to Messages?


On 1/23/2015 5:42 PM, JohnF via GROUPS.IO wrote:
I prefer "Messages" to "Archives" as well. Archives comes from the
listserv practice where it's assumed everyone gets mail, and no one has
to look at old messages unless they're really wanting to look at OLD
messages. Messages is better when there may be some people who don't
get mail and just want to read on the web.
Can I add a "like" or a "+1" to John's message?