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Re: Changing a subscribed email address

Malcolm Austen
 

On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 16:28:45 -0000, Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 11:03 PM, I wrote:
Earlier in this thread I wrote if someone searches the Members Manual for Change email then they will find the answer straight away and that is of course true, but one place where the term won't be found is in the Index!

That, and this ...

Changing the email address of an Account is just one of the points explained under the "Index Entry" of Setting account preferences and viewing account information.

...bring their own issue of terminology.

The Member's Manual does not have an Index. It has a Table of Contents but not an Index.

The constant changes to the manuals would probably make an Index unworkable. Search is the substitute, not the ToC.

Malcolm.

--
Malcolm Austen - email: malcolm.austen@...


Re: Changing a subscribed email address

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 11:03 PM, I wrote:
I will not spend time now raising the matter - it can wait until tomorrow.
It is now well and truly "tomorrow, so here goes...

Earlier in this thread I wrote if someone searches the Members Manual for Change email then they will find the answer straight away and that is of course true, but one place where the term won't be found is in the Index! Changing the email address of an Account is just one of the points explained under the "Index Entry" of Setting account preferences and viewing account information. Now IMHO that is almost completely opaque as a means of telling members what is actually in there; to put it another way the inevitable consequence of an electronic search not finding "change email" in the Index is that a member doing a visual search of the Index will find nothing that relates directly to changing an account email address, and I can see that might (would?) be deeply frustrating for anyone trying it.

Perhaps Lynne's original point might be rewritten as "Change email address is not listed in the Index and it would help if it was". If that is a reasonable summary of what is required then I would definitely agree with it. A quick and easy fix might be to add an idented line under the existing index entry (or more correctly entries) thus:

Setting account preferences and viewing account information
          (Includes how to change the email address associated with an Account)

I have used the "on line" version in this example; the pdf version would be similar. The indented line would not necessarily need to be linked, although it might help. 

I am still of the view that weakening the direct relationship between an Account and its email address by seeming to shift the relationship to one of a Membership (or Subscription) and an email address would not be the right thing to do.

Chris


Re: Changing a subscribed email address

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 09:54 PM, Peter Cook wrote:
...I do think it's important to maintain consistent language.
Exactly; it is a fundamental part of the way in which Groups.io works; a person's email address is an integral part of that person's Account, and IMHO nothing ought to be said / written which fuzzies the issue by seeming to ally the address with a group Membership / Subscription.

However, having done some more digging I think I have identified a possible (likely?) source of confusion in the way that the Manuals are Indexed, but as I am in the UK (i.e. a wildly different time zone!) I will not spend time now raising the matter - it can wait until tomorrow. (Now 11.00 pm UK time)

Chris


Re: Changing a subscribed email address

Pete Cook
 

Lynne, I agree with Chris and I do think it's important to maintain consistent language. Rather than including the word "subscription" it might be more useful to explain the distinction between "account" and "subscription" in key places such as here .

Pete


Re: Changing a subscribed email address

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 05:26 PM, Lynne wrote:
The description of this group doesn't indicate that proposed changes be made to the GMF group first, so I didn't know I had to do that first. 
Whoa... they don't require it! I was merely suggesting that GMF is a good place to discuss ideas before approaching Groups.io with them.

Another point; if someone searches the Members Manual for Change email then they will find the answer straight away. I suspect searching for "subject" information is always likely to be unhelpful.

Chris


Re: Changing a subscribed email address

Lynne
 

Hello Chris

I do understand what changing the address under Account does and that is what members of my groups wish to do.  They want to change the email address used by Groups.io for any and all groups to which they belong.  I bet there are thousands of members of email groups who don't think of "accounts," but think of "subscriptions."  I'm not saying that's right, just how it is. 

I'm surprised that adding the word "subscription" to the Setting or changing account login elements heading would cause any confusion.  I think it would clarify the point of that section of the manual for many users and would make it easier to find the instructions within the manual. Perhaps adding "global subscription change" in parentheses would work?

The description of this group doesn't indicate that proposed changes be made to the GMF group first, so I didn't know I had to do that first.  Thank you for letting me know.

Lynne


Re: Changing a subscribed email address

Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 04:21 PM, Lynne wrote:
They're not looking for "account information", even though that's what it is, but are seeking "subscription information."
Oh... a point to note is that a person's email address is the unique identifier for their Groups.io Account, not an individual subscription / membership of any given group. Changing a "subscribed address" changes the Account address for every membership a person has within that account. I suspect that trying to make the documentation match what your members are looking for might cause a lot of confusion.

It might be better - at least for now -  to raise this on the Group Managers Forum for a fuller discussion about this point.

Chris


Changing a subscribed email address

Lynne
 

Hello

This is my first post here, so please be patient with me.

As a group owner, the question most asked by members is how to change their subscribed address.  I realize this is covered in the User Manual  and I have a link to that manual in the footers of my group messages.  The problem is that it's not clear to members how to find the information they're seeking.  They're not looking for "account information", even though that's what it is, but are seeking "subscription information."

I was wondering if it would be possible to include the word "subscription" in the Setting or changing account login elements title to make it easier for members to find that information.

Thanks for considering this!

Lynne


Re: Non-functional hyperlinks

Duane
 

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 03:40 PM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
Got it. That's a limitation of the conversion code right now. I'll add it to the TODO list to fix.
Mark,

I know you're busy pretty much the rest of the year, but I just ran into this again.  I was trying to point someone to the Storage Limit Reached area of Help, but can only get them to the overall page so they have to scroll to the bottom manually.

Thanks,
Duane


Members Manual #suggestion

Duane
 

From a discussion on Group_Help, I'd suggest adding and explanation of the circled number on topics.  Probably fits best in section 22.5.2 of the pdf.  Maybe something like:



The circled number after the topic title is the number of messages within the topic, including the original.  Topics with only one message have no indicator.

Thanks,
Duane


Re: Clarify meaning of hashtag setting 'Reply only to sender'

Duane
 

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 05:17 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:
the difference between 'Reply to sender' and 'Reply only to sender' as the latter is not specifically listed as a Reply To option in the Group Settings Message Policies.
That strikes me as a programming glitch rather than a documentation error.

Duane


Clarify meaning of hashtag setting 'Reply only to sender'

Andy Wedge
 

Hi Nina,

In the Owner's Manual section about hashtags https://groups.io/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/managing-hashtags/viewing-creating-modifying-and-deleting-hashtags, can we have some clarification about the difference between 'Reply to sender' and 'Reply only to sender' as the latter is not specifically listed as a Reply To option in the Group Settings Message Policies.

Regards,
Andy


Re: Make clear that although mods can post to locked topics, their posts are moderated if the topic is *also* marked as moderated

Nina E
 

Indeed! :-)

 

From: docs@beta.groups.io <docs@beta.groups.io> On Behalf Of J_Catlady
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 10:23 AM
To: docs@beta.groups.io
Subject: Re: [docs] Make clear that although mods can post to locked topics, their posts are moderated if the topic is *also* marked as moderated

 

Nina,
However, if you've been reading beta (and I know you have:-), you know that at this point Mark is considering undoing the change that allows mods to reply to locked topics. So this is still a work in progress.....
J


Re: Make clear that although mods can post to locked topics, their posts are moderated if the topic is *also* marked as moderated

 

Nina,
However, if you've been reading beta (and I know you have:-), you know that at this point Mark is considering undoing the change that allows mods to reply to locked topics. So this is still a work in progress.....
J


Re: Make clear that although mods can post to locked topics, their posts are moderated if the topic is *also* marked as moderated

Nina E
 

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 10:41 AM, J_Catlady wrote:

The section on "Locking Topics" reads:

 "Group owners and moderators are able to reply to a locked topic (by email or on the group’s website) without having to unlock the topic first and then relock it after posting their reply."

It would be helpful to add that if the topic is also marked as moderated, those replies go through moderation.

I added a statement to that effect (replies to locked topics that are also moderated go through moderation) in the Nov. 12, 2021 update of the Owners Manual. Thanks for the feedback!

- Nina


Re: Fix working in section on hashtags wrt "moderated"

 

Re documentation reflecting current behavior: (1) it doesn’t, really, because it doesn’t make clear that even the first message itself is moderated (and that’s unintuitive and inconsistent with Locked, so needs to be clarified); and 2) the current behavior may change soon anyway since I’ve recently reported this as a bug.


On Nov 5, 2021, at 10:18 AM, Malcolm Austen <malcolm.austen@...> wrote:

 On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 16:04:40 -0000, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 08:02 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
 
No! That reflects how you would like it to work.
No, that is how it logically *should* work. The current behavior is a bug. You are exploiting the bug. 

My argument here is simply that the docs should reflect the current behaviour.

Malcolm.

--
Malcolm Austen - email: malcolm.austen@...


Re: Fix working in section on hashtags wrt "moderated"

Malcolm Austen
 

On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 16:04:40 -0000, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 08:02 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
 
No! That reflects how you would like it to work.
No, that is how it logically *should* work. The current behavior is a bug. You are exploiting the bug. 

My argument here is simply that the docs should reflect the current behaviour.

Malcolm.

--
Malcolm Austen - email: malcolm.austen@...


Re: Fix working in section on hashtags wrt "moderated"

 

if Locked behaved analogously to the way Moderated currently does, even the first message in the topic would be locked out of existence because the topic would be locked before it's even created and the first message itself would bounce. These attributes apply only to replies within the topic, or should. Locked behaves correctly. Moderated does not.


Re: Fix working in section on hashtags wrt "moderated"

 

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 08:02 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote:
 
No! That reflects how you would like it to work.
No, that is how it logically *should* work. The current behavior is a bug. You are exploiting the bug.
It's a bug because

(1) hashtags are not moderated. Logically, and conceptually, topics are the only objects that can be moderated.

(2) If hashtags marked as "Locked" were to work the same way, then if you tried to create a topic with a hashtag marked "Locked," even the first message of the topic would not go through because the topic would be locked before it even existed. And that is not how it works. Only replies to a topic bearing a hashtag marked as "Locked" do not go through.

The current behavior is existentially, logically, and chronologically wrong.

But this is not the place to argue the feature. Please reread my message. I've explained therein that this is awaiting Mark's decision on the functionality. And Nina is not going to make any change without consulting Mark.


Re: Fix working in section on hashtags wrt "moderated"

Malcolm Austen
 

On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:47:40 -0000, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

 

In the section "Creating a Hashtag," all the descriptions of hashtag attributes - with the exception of Locked, which reads "Select this checkbox to immediately lock topics that are created with this hashtag" -  all the descriptions (somewhat) incorrectly, or vaguely, refer to "messages marked with a hashtag," rather than topics marked with a hashtag. Only topics can have hashtags applied to them (the term "marked with"  is vague).

In particular, "Moderated" says "Select this checkbox if you want messages tagged with this hashtag to be moderated."

It should read "Select this checkbox if you want replies to topics tagged with this hashtag to be moderated."


No! That reflects how you would like it to work. 

The docs should reflect the current behaviour which is  "Select this checkbox if you want all future messages tagged with this hashtag to be moderated." - that's essentially the same as the current text as past messages have gone through (or bypassed) moderation. And it is messages, not topics, here as it (currently, and hopefully will continue to) applies to messages that would start a new topic. 

Malcolm.


Currently, this hashtag also makes the very first message of the topic go through moderation, i.e., the topic is moderated even before the first message in it exists (creating something of an existential or chronological conundrum). I have posted this as a bug in beta and await Mark's response. Apparently some people in beta think "Moderated" refers to a "moderated hashtag"; i.e., they (incorrectly) think the hashtag itself is moderated (although only topics can be moderated), and they have been exploiting this bug to restrict use of the hashtag itself. On the basis of that misusage, they've argued against my bug report. If Mark decides NOT to fix the bug (or feature, depending on your POV), the documentation should make clear that even the first message of the topic will be moderated if such a hashtag is applied to it. Otherwise, if he does fix it, the wording should be changed to refer only to replies.




--
Malcolm Austen - email: malcolm.austen@...

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