Mark M.,

• "Web Push" rather than "web/app" (aka "push"). This is the (relatively) standard term used for this type of notice which is different from the old-style web or app notification which required your app and/or browser to be active.

I've retained "web/app" as it is inclusive of both web push notification and mobile app notification methods. I've cleaned up the description a bit to clarify that browser-based notifications are using web push technology.

• "Notice" rather than "Notification". Short is almost always better.

I've retained Notification as referring to a notice given by a specific method. For example, a Group Notice delivered by email, versus a Group Notice delivered by web/app notification.

• Web Push Notices are "sent" rather than "delivered" or "pushed" since neither email nor "push" guarantee delivery or receipt

That's a bit pedantic. However where describing the action of Groups.io I've added "sent" for clarity. This fits with the fact that actual delivery depends on the user's system and software, and the user's own choice of settings.

• Deprecate words such as "instant", "immediately", etc.

Done

• Consider a structure for the Wiki page like:
  • Notice Audiences (targets/recipients?)
    • Group notices 
    • Member Notices
    • Moderator Notices
  • Notice Sending Methods
    • Email
    • Web Push
  • Notice Controls and Settings
    • Web Push Notice Controls. Include some examples or references for configuring.
    • Group Notice Controls
    • Member Notice Controls

I'll think about the structure, particularly as the page grows to accommodate additional developments.

For now I'm comfortable with having an Introductory section that establishes the terminology, followed by main sections for what the group can control and for what the member can control. Plus the odd-man-out of controls on the user's device rather than within the Groups.io interface.

I think "Group Controls" directly addresses what group owners/mods (GMF's primary audience) are most concerned with: how do we control this beast. I don't want to make them read across a bunch of major sections to glean what they need to know.

Shal

Thank you Shal, and everyone who has contributed to documenting and helping make these changes more usable and understandable.

Although I've read through all of the discussion, there a lot of changes and suggestions. May I suggest for your consideration:

• "Web Push" rather than "web/app" (aka "push"). This is the (relatively) standard term used for this type of notice which is different from the old-style web or app notification which required your app and/or browser to be active.
• "Notice" rather than "Notification". Short is almost always better.
• Web Push Notices are "sent" rather than "delivered" or "pushed" since neither email nor "push" guarantee delivery or receipt
• Deprecate words such as "instant", "immediately", etc.
• Consider a structure for the Wiki page like:
  • Notice Audiences (targets/recipients?)
    • Group notices 
    • Member Notices
    • Moderator Notices
  • Notice Sending Methods
    • Email
    • Web Push
  • Notice Controls and Settings
    • Web Push Notice Controls. Include some examples or references for configuring.
    • Group Notice Controls
    • Member Notice Controls

Thank you.
 

Nina,

That sounds reasonable. Maybe we can also propose to Mark that he
change the label of the Member Notices tab (under Admin > Settings) to
just Notices, which would cover both.

Perhaps. I'm not sure that's needed though, the two exceptions don't feel like such a big deal.

I've updated the wiki page to describe the those Member Notices along with the new ones. It only took one short paragraph in the Group Controls section. It seems pretty clean, I like how it reads. We'll see if the GMF membership has any reaction to it.

Shal

Thanks for the additional thoughts so far.

Shal >> We could, for example, enhance the description of Guidelines and Monthly, in the group Settings, to say that they are exceptions - that they are in fact Group Notices. They are already exceptional in having a scheduled send rather than being tied to an action.
In a similar vein, it might make sense to describe the rest of them also under Member Notices. They would be distinct in that they already exist, and in that by nature they don't allow for user control. <<

That sounds reasonable. Maybe we can also propose to Mark that he change the label of the Member Notices tab (under Admin > Settings) to just Notices, which would cover both. (A label of "Member and Group Notices" would be clear but unwieldy. :-) )

Shal >> So that's what I went with: Web/App, Group, and Email Notification: describing the method used in the act of delivery. Then Moderator, Member, and Group Notices: describing the target of the notice. <<

Makes sense.

Shal >> But I think we still need the distinction I made between the targets of the content; and we also need the distinction I made between the methods of delivery. <<

Agreed.

Shal >> I eventually backed away from the term "push", relegating it to "aka" status. I might go further and leave only the first of those references. My reason is that I didn't find it being used in browser or OS documentation, but I'll admit I only looked at the ones I use. <<

Firefox has help content about "Web Push notifications" but also uses just "notifications" in the popup that asks whether you want to allow notifications from a website. Other browsers I looked at (Edge on Windows and Chrome on Android) seem to use just "notifications." So I'll use the "aka push" approach in the Groups.io documentation.

Robert, Chris >> Would the term "Alert" be useful as an alternative to "Notification" in many cases? <<

I do like the brevity of "Alert," but "Notification" might be more familiar to people because it's the term that browsers/websites/apps (the ones I've looked at, at least) generally seem to use for this type of feature.

- Nina

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 04:59 PM, West Coast Compañeros Staff wrote:

Would the term "Alert" be useful as an alternative to "Notification" in many cases? It may be a tad over-dramatic, but it has the benefit of brevity.

Yes. :)

Chris

Nina,

> ... I'm a little concerned that "Notice" (especially "Member Notice")
> could be confused with references to the member notices that
> owners/moderators set up in their groups' settings.

Hmm... I hadn't thought of that.

Would the term "Alert" be useful as an alternative to "Notification" in many cases? It may be a tad over-dramatic, but it has the benefit of brevity. I would reserve "Notice" for those that appear n the Notice Type drop-down list under Member Notices in the Settings section.

Robert R.

--
MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2015)
macOS Mojave version 10.4.6
Firefox Version 75.0 / Google Chrome Version 81.0

iPhone XR 64 GB
iOS 13.4

Nina,

... I'm a little concerned that "Notice" (especially "Member Notice")
could be confused with references to the member notices that
owners/moderators set up in their groups' settings.

Hmm... I hadn't thought of that.

I'd like to say that they really are the same, as both are sent direct to the member. But that's not true of Guidelines and Monthly, which are Group Notices in my parlance (and in implementation, given their hashtags).

Also, the new ones are expected to be controlled by the member via their Subscription page; not so the ones defined in the group's Settings.

Nevertheless, I think I'd rather seek a way to work with this slight overlap in terminology than try to find some terminology that is non-overlapping but less clear for each application.

We could, for example, enhance the description of Guidelines and Monthly, in the group Settings, to say that they are exceptions - that they are in fact Group Notices. They are already exceptional in having a scheduled send rather than being tied to an action.

In a similar vein, it might make sense to describe the rest of them also under Member Notices. They would be distinct in that they already exist, and in that by nature they don't allow for user control.

Perhaps using "Notification" here, rather than "Notice," would help
alleviate potential confusion.

I started off that way, but Notification is just so much baggage to carry around. It didn't seem right to me, and looking at my dictionary (yes, the dead trees kind) clarified why. As nouns, "notice" is the message, "notification" is the act of delivering it.

So that's what I went with: Web/App, Group, and Email Notification: describing the method used in the act of delivery. Then Moderator, Member, and Group Notices: describing the target of the notice.

As a further distinction, throughout the wiki and the Help Center
documentation, maybe we can try to use "notification" to refer to the
alert message that is sent by email or web/app push and "notice" to
refer to the message content (the details of what someone is being
notified about).

I do like staying consistent with standard English usage.

But I think we still need the distinction I made between the targets of the content; and we also need the distinction I made between the methods of delivery. It is the only way I can think of to make a sensibly organized description.

(I already intended to add "push notification.")

I eventually backed away from the term "push", relegating it to "aka" status. I might go further and leave only the first of those references. My reason is that I didn't find it being used in browser or OS documentation, but I'll admit I only looked at the ones I use.

Shal

Andy,

The Notifications page looks good. I don't see a reference to
#cal-cancelled ...

Thanks for the heads up.

I only use basic calendar features, and I haven't paid much attention to some of the enhanced features. Maybe someone familiar with them will contribute to the page.

and in beta, Bruce asked a question about #email and #feed which I
can't recall seeing a response to.

Interesting question of Bruce's. I could see that going either way: treat them as normal topic hashtags, or treat them as Group Notices.

I was thinking that all Group Notices have a corresponding Moderator Notice, but that's not true of the calendar notices. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Shal

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 03:14 AM, Shal Farley wrote:

Thanks to some prodding from GMF members I went through a major clean-up of that page today, to try and get consistent terminology and a cohesive explanation.

Hi Shal,

The Notifications page looks good. I don't see a reference to #cal-cancelled and in beta, Bruce asked a question about #email and #feed which I can't recall seeing a response to.

Regards,
Andy

Nina, (and anyone else interested)

I've sort of settled on a set of terms used to discuss the emerging feature, including

Group Notice - the kind that post to the group
Member Notice - the kind that don't exist yet (Likes, Chats)
Moderator Notice - the kind that are sent by direct to the mod/owner

I've also been describing the difference between Web/App Notifications and email delivery as primarily a difference in how a given notice (of any of those three types) may be delivered to the user.

If you have a moment (well, it will take more than a moment) could you have a look at GMFs wiki page for this feature, and see if you think I'm on the right track with how I'm describing it? And of course on any details of implementation that I may have missed or mistaken.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/21482

Thanks to some prodding from GMF members I went through a major clean-up of that page today, to try and get consistent terminology and a cohesive explanation.

Shal

Hi, Duane. These items are addressed in the June 12 release of the Members Manual. Regarding a couple of your comments:

> 4.4.2
> Note: should say "select Login from the top menu..."

The reference is actually to the Login item on the left navigation menu when you're on your account page. I clarified the note (I hope :-) ).

> add 4.6.1
> If the group owner has allowed it, you can download the message archive for the group.  There will be an "Export Group Data" button at the top of any message view page.

Because this feature is group specific (not account related per se), I added a new topic, "Downloading a group's message archive," under "Working with group messages" (section 8 in the PDF version).

Thank you once again for your feedback!

- Nina

If you send 40 or more messages with 30 minutes to the same group from the same email address.

Can someone change that to "If you send 40 or more messages *within* 30 minutes"?

This is corrected in the June 12 release of the Members Manual. Good catch, Ronaldo - thank you!

- Nina

PDF references

3.2
item 3, add
Note: If you've been banned from the group that you wish to join, you will be unable to get to the group home page while logged in.

4.1
in Note, it should say ", you might have a different..." since an alias can be used to send messages to groups once it has been set up as noted in 4.4.2

4.3.2
For clarity, should say "The login is valid for at least 30 days if cookies are retained on that device..."

4.4.2
Note: should say "select Login from the top menu..."

4.5
I believe the "! Important:" should be in red since it's so critical and could have serious repercussions.

add 4.6.1
If the group owner has allowed it, you can download the message archive for the group.  There will be an "Export Group Data" button at the top of any message view page.

5.3
does NOT show what a member will see and could be confusing if they don't read the Note: below the image.  The Approvals needed column is only shown for owner/mods.  Text above the image needs to be changed to reflect this as well ("whether your posts to the groups need approval," should be deleted). See attachment

5.6
Description of Feature "Month..." should say "The default is Month view, but your chosen option will be used for future visits to this page."

8.2
In case it's not on the current list:  As noted by Ronaldo, https://beta.groups.io/g/docs/message/112, the note about message sending limits should say "If you send 40 or more messages within 30 minutes..."

8.3
step 5
Note:  The default reply may be either Group or Sender, depending on the settings the group owner has made.  You can use the appropriate button to choose where to send your reply if the owner hasn't disabled the other option.

13.2
first Tip
Add:  Clicking on the column heading a second time will reverse the sort order.

15.2
first Tip
Add:  Clicking on the column heading a second time will reverse the sort order.

17.3
first Tip
Add:  Clicking on the column heading a second time will reverse the sort order.

17.8
Step 4, first bullet, add
Note: If the Description is too long, some of it won't be visible on the album main page.  Depending on font size, up to about 5 lines will fit.  You should verify that the entire description is visible when creating or modifying an album.

22.2.2
Add
Note:  There is a limit of 2 attachments per message included in the Digest, https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/25250
(What happens to additional attachments for a message has not been clarified as of 9 June 2020)

Thanks,
Duane

The size limit for an individual email message is 100MB.

Seems like an awful lot to me, but then I barely use attachments

If you send 40 or more messages with 30 minutes to the same group from the same email address.

Can someone change that to "If you send 40 or more messages *within* 30 minutes"?

groetjes, Ronaldo

I added a note to that step in the June 5 release of the Members Manual.

Thank you for the feedback!

- Nina

I added a Member badges and topic icons section under Additional information to the June 5 release of both the Members Manual and the Owners Manual and added links to that section from the applicable places in both manuals.

Thank you for the feedback!

- Nina

I added information about the threading algorithm to both the Owners Manual and the Members Manual in the May 22 releases. (Apologies for the belated reply.)

Thanks for the feedback!

- Nina

These suggestions and corrections were incorporated in the May 22 release of the Members Manual. (Apologies for the belated reply.)

Thank you for the feedback!

- Nina

I added the respective Groups.io home page links in the May 22 release of the Members Manual. (Apologies for not replying about it sooner.)

Thank you, as always, for the feedback!

- Nina